Catalonia Declared Independence From Spain

Franco though the same.

Yes, you had all sorts of international revolutionaries meddling in Spain back then, so he in fact had all the rights to defend the integrity of spanish territory against what was in fact something very alike the current syrian “civil war”.

You might say the only problem was really the use of widespread bombing of civilian population.

Same shit happened here in Brazil with communist trying to take power at that time, and we also had a “fascist” that averted widespread revolution and consequent millions of deaths.

Of course, that is the problem of trying to enforce the “law” at any cost. If your government administrators have a fascist mentality, they do not care to kill children, women, old men and women, whaterver, in order to mantain the land integrity. When, in reality, this land integrity does not exist anymore (mainly mentality).

It’s bad with the law, worst without it.

If you think otherwise you should move to Somalia.

And again, we have here the same shitty people making ilegal referendums to separate our southern region, they call themselves anarquists, anarcocapitalists and libertarians, but what they want in fact is to be vassals of the globalist empire.

If this referendum is ilegal ¿ how can you explain that 45% persent, or 85% in favor (depending who you are talking to) ? It is not possible to explain those numbers if this would be ilegal, do you understand what I mean ? These numbers just mean that people really want to be separated.

It is ilegal because it is against the constitution or the rules of the country, simple as that.

Moreover, there were polls saying that 60% are against the separation, those who were ther eto vote were the ones in favour, most of the people who are against didn’t vote not to give legitimacy to that nonsense.

It would be much more constructive if catalonians started a nation wide debate on this mattert and proposed a nation wide referendum, this would make it legal. The independence of a region is a matter of interest of the people of the entire country as it affects the country as a whole, those lands are public, they don’t belong only to the people of catalonia to begin with.

Well, I thin the solution would be that Spanish government (officially) makes a poll calling to all people of Catalonia to vote whether or not they want separation. This vote would be superviced by Catalunia people and government people. You do not have to kill anybody, and the goverment or Catalunia people have to accept the result of the poll. What do you think ? would the government be afraid of this poll ?

Depends, I don’t know what is written on spanish constitution, here on Brazil our constitution states that all territory of Brazil belongs to all and it is not divisible in any way or form, so here we would need to change the constitution, but even then it would be impossible because on the constitution any attempt to divide our territory is a crime, even if such attempt is made by the president or lawmakers, such crime is high treason and if the country’s integrity is in danger the military can be summoned by one of the 3 powers to defend it, so taking my country as an example it is pretty impossible to separate any region on a legal basis.

As I don’t know spanish legislation I can’t answer your question.

http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/titulos/articulos.jsp?ini=1&fin=9&tipo=2

Thx, but I already imagined that it wouldn’t be separatist friendly.

Spanish Constitution, voted and approved by more than 90% of people in CATALONIA says that “Spain is non-divisible country”. Article 2. Read at least Preliminary Title.

Constitution can be modified, of course. There are legal ways to do it. But not a unileteral decelaration of independence.

it was illegal also acording to catalonian law

i know better then you. you learn falsified history.

So give me the name of one south american tribe.

yanomamo. in two years i will visit them

Yanomamis were the last tribe to be found on the 20th century and it is one peacefull one, there were eaths caused by criminals and gold miners, but they are largely protected by the government and laws.

There are reports of more tribes untouched by modern civilization.

arawak, kechua, aymara (i am learning kechua), patagones, charrua, guarani …

Yes, most of the tribes you quoted were exactly the more peaceful ones that aligned themselves with the conquerers, with exception of the charruas, it seems you never heard about the Aimorés, Tupinambas, Caribas, and many others.

tupinambas, caribas yes.

i hate typing. when i wll go in south america, i vist you :) you can me talk a lot of about brasilian indians :) and also about not indians :D

Few tribes left where I live, but some historic colonial cities with lots of baroque churchs and art, I don’t know if that interests you.

I guess the most popular places to visit here in Brazil are northeatern beaches, the amazon region, Pantanal, and Iguaçu falls.

If you like sexual tourism and getting robbed you go to Rio de Janeiro.

So you are Brazilian. I understandi now, You and your country exist because of the Portuguese. My country and its history go back to 3500 BC. We had a civilization then and your ancestors were eating raw meat and living in caves.

So the genocide of brazilian tribes have your seal of approval?

“So the genocide of brazilian tribes have your seal of approval?” Is this answer addressed to me? If that is so, I will clarify. When I said that your ancestors were eating raw meat, I meant the Europeans because given your enthusiasm for defending them, I guess you are of European stock. 4500 years ago -the time of the first civilization in Peru- your ancestors -Portuguese or whatever- were not the “highly civilized” you are so proud about. This shows that history does not progress as a continuous line.

I can’ t trace my ancestrality to 4500, what if I have egyptian ancestors, I don’t know.

This is not a contest about who has the oldest civilization, my argument is you can’t blame everything that happened on europeans.

You don’t need to hate me because I’m “white”, I sure don’t hate you, and I find all history beautiful and interesting, including Incas.

If I mentioned the civilizational state of your ancestors is to show you how relative it is to say “hey we were so much more advanced” as you do when you write and compare European and native societies. On the other hand, it is funny that you say that you don’t hate me when above you state an absolute lie about this “…hatred was their religion and they didn’t have any hope for a world where you wouldn’t eat or be eaten.” If somebody had hatred as religion was precisely the Spanish who saw the need to torture in order to “convince” people about their faith. We lived a life more in tune with nature.

I never claimed they were more advanced, I aid Incas were tryants, I never said spanish were not tyrants.

Yes, you lived more in tune with nature, and that means the rule of the stronger, there were human sacrifices and such, you can’t deny it was ruthless society, and of course spanish were ruthless too, but on european culture there was the seed for a the more tolerant world we have today.

It is foolish to say the Incas were tyrants. This is using a western concept to define something that they didn’t understand because it was completely alien to their own experience. So you keep making generalizations? When you write about human sacrifices, I guess you mean the Brazilian tribes. In the Inca Empire there were very few cases. The Aztecs were another story. So what? Do we have to justify ourselves for our own way of government? Whatever we did, it is something that only concerns us. Surely “the more tolerant world” as you call your ancestors is the one that committed the worst crimes in history from making enslavement an international trade to two world wars and the current destruction ofd the planet.

My argument about Inca tirany is just to explain the fact that they were also hated by other local tribes who allied with the spanish to take them down, so to say everyone, all the peoples are to blame for everthing that happened in history, if the Incas were nicer to other tribes such tribes wouldn’t ally with spanish conquerers to overthrow them.

Yes, huge wars happened exactly because there were those who tried to remake civilization at their own image, it was not the fault of those who preached tolerance.

And international trade always happened, there is reports the chinese would trade as far as mexico much before the europeans were here.

Slavery too is something that always happened one way or another.

The fact that other tribes allied themselves with the Spanish is because evidently nobody likes to be dominated. These tribes believed the lies the Spanish told them. Little did they know that they were sealing their fate when they decided to suppport the invaders. Had they known that they’d become servants exploited to death, I assure you they wouldn’t have been so fickle.

So, the Incas were tyrants, just like spanish, I prove my point.

I think you should stop using concepts that do not appply. No, they were not tyrants. Tyrants were your kings.

Tyrant is someone who rule for himself and not for others, if Incas ruled for themselves at the cost of other tribes they were, indeed, tyrants, and that explains why the tribes rebeled… just to discover later spanish were tyrants too…

You know whatm everyone will be a tyrant without very explicit rules giving them limits, nowadays we have USA, tomorrow might be the chinese.

no, sexual turism not is my goal :) yes, north east is also for me interesting.

how is now in Mato Grosso?

There is always hot as hell, we are facing soem kind of droght across the country right now, rainy season is the best time to go there, but is also the hottest.

i am fascinated with jungles in amazonia

Better to come fast before they chopp them all then…

:(

Hehe, don’ t wory I was kind of kidding… the rate of forest destruction reduced a lot lately…

It doesn’t change the fact we lost a lot on the last decades though…

Sure you must be one of those white trash in here who thinks you are better than the natives. What is your point of asking him to name tribes? Ok my tribe is Quechua. So what?

I also have native blood, probably nto as much as you though, our blood is the same color though…

If you have native blood, at least you should, for the sake of decency, not spread lies and falsehoods. Maybe the tribes in your country were all cannibal. I doubt it. But don’t put us all in the same bag. Even if this were the case, so what? Did this give the right to Europeans to invade and destroy the civilizations and societies they found? This “natives were backward and killed each other by the thousands” is only a poor argument by Europeans to justify their crimes. What are you doing taking the side of Europeans? Are Brazilians Europeans?

Back then there was no such thing as right to invade, strong empires would grow, like the inca, and would be conquered if they were weak. IF you think Incas were all nice and never commited any aggression to other tribes you are deluded, it was always about military power.

The same happened to iberian people when they were conquered by the moors, they had to reconquer their territories and were in constant struggle just to survive as a people, always under threat of invasion, and that is how it worked, you conquered or was conquered, and that is why they were sailing across the oceans because they were cornered in europe and had to find a way out, they ended up here and conquered here, that’s just how it worked, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course when they came here they changed the dynamics of local conflicts, but the same law would apply here too, it’s just the Incas stopped being the stronger power in the region and lost their supremacy, thus they fell.

Stop judging history.

Who said my ancestors, the Incas, were “all nice”? Again,this is the same old tired argument from Europeans- are you European?- to justify their crimes. My point is that we would have been much better without the European invasions. Well, it happened and there was nothing we can do about it. But at least if someone is going to say something about it, that person should try to be accurate. Otherwise he is just being an Uncle Tom.

You don’t know how things would work out, perhaps our Tupinamabas could organize a barbarian canibal horde and climb your mountains eating and conquering your falling inca empire always engulfed in civil wars. Or even the Inca empire could grow even stronger and conquer brazilian lands doing to our peaceful tribes exactly the same stuff the spanish did to you.

All I’m saying is we are all humans, and on history it was always the rule of the stronger.

You seem to overlook something called weltanschauung. Whenever there were conquests in the Andes region, and since we all shared the same “cosmovisión”, we never tried to destroy and crush the other society. That is why the Inca pantheon was full of the other civilizations’ Gods and their elites came to Cusco to study and learn the Inca ways. When the Europeans came, their vision of the world was completely different and they only cared about greed and religion.

Rome also would integrate other peoples gods on their panteon… Were romans all nice and good? No, they were an empire, they didn’t like to genocide the people they conquered, but they would if it was needed to fulfill their domination, and this also probably was true to Incas, however we don’t have as many accounts for Incas as we have for romans.

We were not Romans. There are accounts about Inca rule and coming directly from Spanish “cronistas” and if you had read them, you would not have been so casual in mentioning the “savages” and our customs.

I’m talking about pre-colombian times.

I don’t think Incas were savages, they were indeed a civilization, an empire that ruled over other peoples like many empires there were in history.

I’m not taking the side of europeans, I take the side of modern civilization as I don’t think overthrowing modern civlization will bring anything but barbarism and tragedy.

Dismembring spain will only bring chaos to spain, will only strngthem the postion of thoe who want to see us all fighting wach other for profit.

There is something called internatioonal law that suppports the Catalans’ drive for independence. The same happened in the 1990s with the dismemberment of Yugoslavia. Then the US as well as NATO said that the nations inside that country had the right to choose an independent path. The Spanish supported this split up. But now the hypocrites whine because it is affecting them.

Dismemberment of Yugoslavia was a major crime against humanity, then they created a precedent with kosovo independence and that was a HUGE mistake, and spain never recognized Kosovo, yo uare wrong, blinded by hatred.

Yugoslavia was too developed for Germany’s tastes and too competitive (it’s better to have a colony than a competitor). The occupation of Kosovo is to deprive Serbia of independence (Serbia has 500-700 years of coal there for it’s needs) , numerous minerals and metals worth well over a trillion dollars. The establishment of a base of occupation (Bondsteel (2nd largest in Europe) – built on 2 leveled Serbian villages) is to control South-East Europe (Stabilize/Destabilize). Thirdly, to control communication towards the black sea – for the war against Russia. The avarice of the western elites and yes men is a crime against humanity, against all of us – because it leads to the END.

P.S. Serbia supports the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Spain.

Patriots around the world should unite against the evil of globalism.

The right of self-determination is an international law tenet. Spain led by its fascist leaders want to trample on this. Rajoy’s sacking of Catalan President Carles Puidgemont and other Catalan authorities is lawless and malicious. This IS a type of behaviour characteristic of a tyrant, one where a police state represses and exploits its people. A tyrant, smart ass, is “an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or person, or one who has usurped legitimate sovereignty. Often described as a cruel character, a tyrant defends his position by oppressive means, tending to control almost everything in the stateThe Incas never did that with their subjects”. These were not traits of our kings in Cusco, but they define your royals in Europe. Their democracy is a farce because only monied interests rule and the rights and welfare of the common people are totally ignored.

I can see below that you have upvoted the rant of a Spaniard who rather than using arguments to defend hs views he insults viciously a person he disagrees with. Good to see the kind of ilk you belong to.

Please, refer to me a a brazilian, I’m not european, we brazilians alwas had strong sense of national identity all the way back to the 19th century, there was never here this concept of white are them, and native or black are true owners of the land. Research brazilian history and will understand that the beginning was when Diogo Álvares Correia married princess Paraguaçu, it was not a conquest through arms, but an alliance between a Tupinambá tribe and the portuguese, much for the interest of the natives.

A for the tyrant concept, it is an aristotelean one, and it means exactly that, it is the oposition of monarch (one who rules for all), tyrant is one who rules for himself, you don’t need to go over the board and pick a very complex definition of the word to suit your interests.

AS for the right of self-determination, it was exactly what happened to the tribes who aligned themselves with pizarro, they wanted to break away from Inca rule, so they aligned themselves with the foreign invader, so you shouldn’t be complaining. If catalonians find a foreign sponsor to help them break away from Spain their fate will be the same of native tribes who brak away from Incas, they will just be enslaved.

The nation-state is the cornerstone of world stability, if you allow international institutions to break it we will be at the verge of global conflict, don’t be naive.

The dismemberment of Yugoslavia was planned in 1976, and agreed upon by the USA, Germany, and the Vatican (French General Pierre Marie Gallois). Numerous appropriations bills were voted for prior to the war in the US congress, and senate. The interesting part was it was in contravention of the constitution of the land, as well as republic constitutions. The parts of Croatia and Bosnia inhabited by Serbs voted to stay in Yugoslavia, henceforth they demanded to breakaway from the breakaway republics. Serbs were in the way of Nato expansion, so no mercy was shown. More interesting was the pressure and blackmail exerted by Germany and the vatican towards European partners re: the signing of the maastricht treaty (Hans van den Broek). The Maastricht treaty killed Yugoslavia. German BND agents were already dying in Slovenia from early 91. International law meant nothing then but interests, and this is the way of the future.

??? what is this that you copy and pasted? Of course that when the Spanish arrived we were in the middle of a civil war and they took advantage of this. So? Surely that in tems of weapons, Europe was ahead. However, in terms of administration, roads, common wealth, the Inca Empire was much more advanced. For one thing nobody was hungry nor were people brutally exploited like in Europe where the kings were just a bunch of thieves.

Because you had potatoes, potatoes also ended the hunger in europe.

Not only potatoes. We had institutions like the Minka, the Ayni, etc as well as the Tambos which were set up to prevent people from going hungry in years of bad harvests. The inca rule was paternalistic and Europeans cannot come with their concepts to tell us how we had to govern ourselves.

Fact is you overthrowed yourselves, that can’t be denied.

Also, Incas in never had real competition, life on europe was not that easy, I wonder how much time they would last with the moors as their neighbors.

No one is hating on Europeans in general, just the Spaniard paella-niggers. Nearly every single nation they conquered was left a complete shithole because their Arab blood prevented them from doing anything but rape and plunder the lands they conquered.

All the english did was kill and expel 100% of the population where they were and proceed stealing their neghbours, and that is how you made your empire.