Dozens Of US F-15, F-16 Fighter Jets Deployed In Poland

You are absolutely correct. I totaly agree with you!

Go get your vaccine and make sure you get plenty of fluoride.

Water is fluoridated in Toronto …

Certainly this explains a lot!

It does, under the name Mistery Babylon. Russia is the King of the North.

Canada is King of the North … full stop

Canada defeats the Russians in Hockey ALL the time … eh?

Don’t get me wrong … Russian hockey players are GREAT … but Canada always wins

Very funny Shlomo…

By the way Russia beat them on quiet y few occasions…

Ya remind me …

Vietnam, Syria, Iraq,Crimea…

lol

Indeed. Crumbling pedonazi americant empire is lol.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_men%27s_national_ice_hockey_team

Canada’s Men’s Hockey Tram are the best

Canada Cup 1972 was the beginning of Canada’s domination over Soviet / Russian hockey … you’re obviously ignorant on the subject …

punk

Just look at the medal board…

lol

punk

I already knew what you are…

Let me guess jewish neonazi living in Canada… The living oxymoron and yet you exist…

I’ve read there’s a lot of them living in Western Canada. Lots of stories of Nazi flags flying during WW2.

The real twilight zone…

It very well could be but it is just supposition.

No the king of the north is NATO. It’s even in the title. Sometimes God likes to mess with us.

We disagree on that one :) The King of the North will destroy Mistery Babylon in 20mins. Without warning.

Show me the biblical book and versus.

No the king of the north controls logistics from the northpole = RUSSIA nato never won any war incidentally,try to research,logistics + FOSSIL$ Besides no glory in fascism nor the lgbtq (period) serious abonimnation.

That is a very clueless statement my friend.

Sure it does. We are the beast of Revelations.

We could be the first beast that rises out of the sea, or a part of it anyway. But Babylon is that great city which is Jerusalem.

How could we be the 1st beast? The bible clearly lays out the progression.

Well the first beast gives power to the second beast. Based on that and looking at the way things are it seems that the U.S. is what gives power to Israel. I’m not saying it is, like I said “could”.

So called Israel is the harlot. She rides the beast. The beast turns on her and devours.

Yes, Israel is the harlot Babylon, that great city. Of that we can be sure.

The US specifically. “Babylon the Great “. The Prostitute is the CIA who sells her stuff to terrorists, governments even the Pope. Exactly like a real prostitute.

Babylon is that Great City. It is most likely Jerusalem under the control of the synagogue of Satan which is Israel.

Rev 14:8, 16:9 etcetera

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

It is surprising by water. The world trades with it. Immense wealth etc. USA is Babylon the Great. Severn headed beast is your G7 countries. The ten horns are your little additions like Poland, Romania etc.

Deceive yourself if you like. The mind which interprets it “must have wisdom”

The USA is Babylon the Great.

I’m not going to argue with you. You have your opinion but the fact is that Israel “Zionists” run this world and most “Christians” bow to them because they have been deceived into believing the “Jews” are God chosen people.

Aside from the suppositions on Babylon let’s look at the facts that we do know. The U.S. is a Godless country because it is set in the U.S. Constitution saying that God is not allowed in any legislation. That is why the deviant left always wins because in the end the Courts will rule according to the Constitution which is held supreme over God’s Law.

Israel, the physical people, had their covenant and it was fulfilled yet the “Jews” still try to claim that covenant for themselves and they are trying to fulfill their expected promise by their own means. This was planned a long time ago and came together at the World Zionist Conference in 1897. Since then it is easy to see how they have manipulated people and countries to obtain their desired state. But this is all part of the end time deception prophesied in Scripture.

Arguing about who is Babylon does not change that. In the end it really doesn’t matter because there is NO Godly country in this world. And Christians throughout the world worship the lie in rejection of God’s Law.

The whole world will be destroyed in the end. I say come on with it.

You miss the point.

The Bible talks of an end time country rich with a prostitute sitting on a 7 headed beast which has multitudes from Different countries!

It is not Israel or Jerusalem.

Babylon the great is the USA. Many countries and traders will cry when it burns. I included. If I had my way Babylon the Great will be another country not the USA.

However Babylon the Great is the USA. The USA will burn according to the Bible because it is corrupting the rest of the planet !

Sorry but it doesn’t say “country”. It says that Great City. Jerusalem is and has always been that great city. Where was our Lord crucified? Jerusalem.

Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

A mind that has wisdom must interpret!!!

I understand your dislike of the CIA but that has no bearing on what Scripture says.

The scripture is very specific about the CIA. The prostitute of rd elations is the CIA. The number 666 is a prophets interpretation of what he heard as “CIA”

The CIA is expanding its global murder spree , spreading all kinds of unholy doctrines corrupting the earth. Who gave you authority over mankind? When did you get that power to decide how this planet develops.

It is true even though I did not believe it earlier on, you are beyond redemption or remorse. You cannot be fixed. To save humanity you will be wiped off the map. Not even roaches will inhabit the land. This will cleanse your corruption globally

I agree with almost everything you say but the US constitution is surely not based on what you said.

The 1st Amendment to the Constitution clearly states that no religion, aka God, can be a basis for legislation. “Congress shall pass NO law with Respect to an establishment of religion.”

This means there can be no government recognized religion which means you cannot promote any legislation that is based on religion, aka God. But worse than that you can’t even oppose Godless legislation because of your belief in your religion, aka God. You see, there is no restriction places on godless legislation. How can we do anything but degenerate as a nation under those rules?

That is why the deviants keep winning in the courts. Even when there are referendums and the people vote to limit things like, for instance, abortions, when they go to court they are thrown out because opposition to abortion is a religious, or can be tied to religious, beliefs and the Constitution FORBIDS that.

To take that further, the Constitution is based on two BIG lies. First is that men are created equal and the second is that our government provides “freedom”. And because of these two lies then all deviants have to do is claim they are “born that way” and they have the “freedom” from being bound by God’s Law.

Believe me, we have been deceived from childhood.

“And Satan shall go out to deceive the nations.”

That simply means that the church cannot dictate legislation. That does not mean God cannot inspire laws, or even be the basis of them.

“That simply means that the church cannot dictate legislation.”

“That does not mean God cannot inspire laws, or even be the basis of them.”

You need to read what you just said.

You cannot say that the “church” cannot dictate legislation and then say it can inspire law. That is an oxymoron. All law is dictatorial. So if church doctrine can inspire law then it is seeking to dictate. It is therefor forbidden by the 1st Amendment. And that is why all attempts to enforce God’s moral law are struck down by the courts and why deviants, who have no restrictions under the Constitution, have free reign to force us to bake objectionable cakes and teach our children “alternative” sex in schools, etcetera. It is legal to break EVERY one of God’s Laws in this country and that is why we are in the degenerate state we are in.

The Constitution, as bad as it is, would have been better if the 1st Amendment were never added. A Godless government will always end up with a Godless society.

I don’t understand why you who can see the sinful rebellion of “Christianity” would embrace such an anti God document that was created by those ignorant apostates.

Christ says look at the fruit. Open your eyes to what is going on around you and it is clear that the seed was bad from the beginning.

Ok, refresh my memory please. Where does it say it is surrounded by water?

Revelations 18:17.

I wondered how many people were made wealthy by trading with Jerusalem! I can tell you ships go and come out of the USA.

I can give you more examples but read Revelations 18.

The USA is Babylon the Great. The USA will Burn !

Every country will burn.

I reread Revelations 18 as you requested and it only solidifies that Jerusalem is that great city.

Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What CITY is like unto this GREAT CITY!

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Luk_13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Scripture seems very clear.

The U.S. will be destroyed and I think it is close, hopefully, but the Great City is Jerusalem.

Do not get confused…. the USA is Babylon the Great… AFter the USA is destroyed, enemies will gather to destroy Israel…. a miracle will save the real Isrealites, not the CIA controlled Israeli armed forces or security apparatus… those will be killed. The ordinary praying Israelites will be saved from the jaws of certain death.

Your ideas are wrong. Luk was talking of a different battle not the END TIMES…. Look up Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 50:13

I think you quoted the wrong verse.

Jer 50:13 Because of the wrath of Yahwh it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

Yeah just look at him and laugh. Fanboying America around as usual. Russia big bad bully and NATO good protector. Pathetic.

Yeah he probably also means like Georgia, Crimea or Eastern Ukraine where the US is actually the one that backed off so far. Moscow has been rotating its forces in both Crimea and Luhansk/Donesk for 7 years now.

Stopping it now that they are potentially needed the most would be the most absurd act ever and nobody in their right minds in decision-making circles would ever think about doing that.

Imagine the terrible precedent and the nullifying effect it would have on 14 years of strategic investment and geopolitical reconstruction for post-USSR Russia.

In Syria, they were invited. As for Crimea, they acted to counter Western influence on their borders which they view as a threat. What they should do is attack an important U.S ally such as Israel.

I couldn’t read half your post when I saw that you took off in the wrong direction after misunderstanding my comment. America will NOT bomb Russia, but Ukraine WILL, depending on how much Russia attacks. What America can do is HELP Ukraine bomb Russia by supplying the necessary weapons to Kiev. I hope Biden does this. Some medium-range precision missiles should inflict severe casualties among the 120k Russians deployed along Ukraine’s borders. I hope that the military cargo planes sent to Ukraine contains such missiles.

America’s military deployment is only to deter Russia from expanding the war to involve Europe in the event that Ukraine kills many Russian soldiers (precision missiles can easily accomplish this for Ukraine). And if the U.S is really serious about this, they should provide these missile to Ukraine and help the Ukrainian military to identify targets.

I know Biden will certainly refrain from attacking Russia. What I don’t know is whether he’ll refrain from arming Ukraine with the right weapons to make Russia bleed like a pig. I hope he does. Because Russia has been begging g for a bloody war for far too long now. About time to give them one.

I don’t believe there will ever be a nuclear war and certainly don’t wish for one. Because the stakes are just too high for any leader to contemplate no matter how crazy they are. The military leadership will likely disobey any orders to use nukes except in retaliation. Civilians would be the most causalities in a nuclear war, and both sides lose.

Ypu’re sleewalking again in ludicrous expectations of blood. For my part I stopped taking your views seriously when I read about Ukraine inflicting severe casualties to Russia. If the US has the sheer madness of ever arming a direct Russian neighbor with the level of sophistication needed to hurt Moscow tothe level you’re seemingly dreaming of,then you’re more deluded than I thought .

They refrained for decades from doing so even in Taiwan, including the extremely reckless and belligerant Trump adminstration. They know the consequences of such acts will be dire and Russia will have a free hand to unleacs their forces without any kid of restraint whatsoever and this time utterly annihilate Ukrainian military all he way to Kyiv,exactly like they did in South Ossetia in 2007. 3 days and the Georgian army and key infrastructure were gone. And the US didn’t move a finger despite habing made Tbilisi the very same promises they’re making to Kyev today .

They’ll also provide whatever weapons the Taliban and Iraqi militia need to tear US soldiers a new one wherever they’re in reach and provoke a Vietnam 2.0 that today’s Washington cannot take.

I’m sure their leaders value their soldiers lives a little bit more than a hateful ignoramus dying to see Russian “pigs” bleed.

I would also say that it is Washington that has been begging for a showdown considering the treacherous way they’ve co stantly been tryong to eat away Russian strategic patience by consuming more and more Eastern countries into NATO in direct and flagrant violation of the post-91 withdrawal that was enacted by Gorbatchev. They have been warning time and again that they will not let nuclear weapons and ABM interceptors ring their sovereign territory in former Soviet states and overt attempts to alter their strategic balance as Washington has been trying hard to do in vain for decades.

Washington among with NATO has been on the offensive for way too long and has taken maximum advantage of a period of weakness and humiliation of Yeltsin’s Russia to advance its pawn everywhere in tje face of its national interests it swore to respect in return for Gorbatchev’s many acts of strategic goodwill. Treachery and arrogance always bites you back the hard way aftr a while.

Serbia bombed in 99, and Baltic States, Bulgaria and Romania, Polland being absorbed i to NATO and immediately becoming hosts to major strategic bases with warheads pointed at Russian targets each year a bit closer to home, did you expect them to just cross arms and wait to be drowned ? To wait for the hammer falling upon their heads before reacting ,let Russians be slaughtered both in Georgia and Eastern Ukraine by ultra-nationalist Coup mobs ? Let Crimea become a massive hub of anti-Russian navies ,are you nuts ?

In the end,Washington got EXACTLY what it deserved : Revenge. Payback. A new Russia standing up for its rights as a people and nation, refusing to let America and Europe further humiliate it or unfairly quell its potential.

Syria was the final straw after Irak and Lybia’s destruction. Georgia was the final straw for NATO hordes approaching and pushing ethnic Russians further East. There are limits to recklessness and Washington learned it the hard way. And it’s only the beggining.

The US has been badly asking for trouble by antagonizing every single country ,big and small,that it perceives as having enough potential to question its unattainable dreams of a continued unconditionnal hegemony over the globe or a given sphere of influence : China, Russia, North Korea,Iran, Syria, Venezuela, even Brazil and Argentina politically where it engaged in active destabilization and interference.

Their outright state banditry and incredibly abusive exploitation of their waning financial influence to strangle entire economies and starve entire populations via control of main monetary institutions will nail their coffin.

You just watch,jihad-loving biggot.

Stop your frantic rants please. I never said Ukraine could defeat Russia. All I said was the U.S could bleed Russian forces by simply arming Ukraine with the right weapons. What would happen were the U.S to send a couple of hundred medium-range precision land attack missiles to Ukraine? Say 1000 – 2000 km missiles and say the U.S passes surveillance intel to Ukraine for targeting? The result will be a serious loss of live among Russians before Russia could subdue Ukraine. Think of this like the way Iran armed Hezbollah with precision missiles capable of taking out Israeli targets hundreds of kilometres away. This alone was enough to somewhat deter Israel from invading Lebanon – at least not without a good reason. it is also the same way Iran managed to hold off a U.S attack – not because the U.S cannot defeat Iran, but because the U.S will suffer serious losses.

Ukraine’s president just threatened that Ukraine will fight to the last man standing. That means they’re gonna throw everything they’ve got at Russia before they go down.

If America were to supply just 200 of these missiles and disperse them underground allover Ukraine and close to the contact line, their use will be catastrophic to Russian forces massed along the Ukrainian border. For example, Russia cannot invade Iran or Turkey with this kind of strategy – massing soldiers at the border. They’ll be sitting ducks to be picked up by waves of missiles. This is just the way America invaded Iraq, but it won’t work on a military armed with precision guided missiles that can deliver high payloads over hundreds or thousands of kilometres. And these are the kinds of weapons the U.S should arm Ukraine with, not the Javelin ATGM (a mere 2.5 km range) they sold to Ukraine. I’m talking about the badass missiles like the ones Iran used to target a U.S base in Iraq. Are you trying to claim Russia has a defense against these missiles? Because then I’ll know you’re full of shit.

“What would happen were the U.S to send a couple of hundred medium-range precision land attack missiles to Ukraine? Say 1000 – 2000 km missiles and say the U.S passes surveillance intel to Ukraine for targeting? ”

To achieve such daring endeavor, the US would have to engage in fully-fledged industrial/military/logistical/intelligence effort that would be impossible to conceal to the Russians – or DPR intelligence. The US would have to send in hundreds of qualified and specialized personnel of all kinds, countless pieces of construction, assembly, and the required elements for a full logistical chain, command & control, support and intelligence + the required sensors. That amounts to a completely overt, nation-wide military effort openly geared at provoking death in Russia. You don’t covertly or discreetly hand over LACMs-class complexes like candy to a non-NATO country just like that.

The American military footprint would have to be permanent in Ukrainian bases all over the country and would almost constitute a de-facto declaration of war from Washington, as Ukraine would have no technical alternative other than to directly require radar and intelligence support from the US apparatus to map target and then guide missiles to them.

To counter such a move, Russia has plenty of options :

1 – Nothing prevents the FSB and much closer and forward bases of the DPR to monitor every bit of such massive development that would take months to be fully established, set a series of predefined targets on each and every single one of these launchpads to destroy preemptively in a matter of minutes in coordinated air and cruise/ballistic strikes in the opening moments of an offensive, if they so choose to do. It’s not as if all these network-centric, complex and bulky apparatus will pop out of the blue overnight on the back of a few trucks coming and going, it doesn’t happen like this. You can indeed do that with Javelins and that’s exactly why the US does it.

2 – If push comes to shove and a given US administration is reckless and shortsighted enough to embark into such ambition despite the obvious risks incurred, Russia can escalate by systematically targeting every single component of the American GPS constellation, specially its military grade sats. It has demonstrated means for that through the form of ASAT killers in its arsenal that can be delivered en masse via Mig-31 interceptors and ground-bases launchers as well. It would be a nightmare scenario for Washington as it would not kill a single US Service member but utterly devastate an entire crucial component of its war-fighting capabilities on a global scale. Escalation goes both ways, and is not a US monopoly. Do you see any US administration sacrificing so much all for the sake of supporting a country like Ukraine ? I don’t. The return of strategic investment is so negative it wouldn’t make sense.

3 – Contrary to Israel with regards to Lebanon, Russia *already* has boots on the ground in areas they want to control, and enjoys massive local backing from ethnic Russians : they are the Donetsk People Republic and its affiliated Russian-supported paramilitary brigades with an active and effective intelligence branch. They constitute the required buffer-zone and will fight on the ground for Russia that in turn will support it from the air and through theater artillery in the event of a war. And so far, Ukraine has *zero* assets in its hands, and when and if it starts coming, it will light up every indicator and red flags in both the DPR all the way to Moscow and due counter-measures will be taken. Counter-intelligence exists for a reason.

By contrast, Israel essentially withdrew from Lebanon and dismantled its intel bases while abandoning its SLA proxy to its fate, had no eyes where it left and underestimated Iranian involvement for many years until it became too late – by Mossad’s own repeated admission : they failed at stopping Iranian build-up of Hezbollah’s strategic inventory and only realize the extent to which it was involved after miserably failing in their 2006 campaign. That’s why you see them frenetically targeting Syria today whenever they see the mere shadow of a Hezbollah-bound shipment – they don’t want that mistake to be repeated.

4 – Finally, Moscow could arm the Taliban, Iran, Syria, even Libyan proxies and military forces with at least a similar level of overt strategic support that the US would provide Ukraine. Iran already has most of the long range assets it needs for deterrence, but currently lacks numbers and a complete military guidance network for perfect accuracy – Russia can immediately open up its GLONASS to plug that gap, and install advanced early warning and surveillance radar stations deep inside Iran to complement its own, add many layers of more advanced Integrated Air-Defense System to massively thicken its homegrown anti-air capability, and provide it with entire squadrons of brand-new Su-30s interceptor that Tehran would gladly pay dearly for and acquire on the spot. Iranian capabilities overall could become many folds and unacceptably more lethal and widespread provided with such unrestrained Russian involvement. And more importantly, it can similarly arm the SAA to the hilt, build up its air-force like in Soviet times, establish strategic missiles bases on Israeli front-lines and also target the USN anchorage at Bahrein and in its KSA and EAU airbases from Syrian soil, and transfer full control of the batteries to Syrian command while supporting them at intel level. That one too, goes both ways.

All of the above scenarios could become very real in the event the US tries to so recklessly alter the balance of power at Russia’s doorstep, that is exactly why America has so far provided mere lip service to Ukraine just as it did for Georgia back in the days. It cannot take the resulting strategic reaction of Russia should they decide to up the ante where it would hurt the US too bad for its taste.

Bottom line is : sure, in pure theory, the US could do a lot of things to harm Russia. But as real as that is the Russian ability to do just the same to the US. That’s called the balance of power.

Now you’ve talked sense. But not think it’s impossible for the U.S to undertake such a task. The only thing Russia could do is arm America’s enemies such as the Taliban. Russia WILL NOT preempt a nationwide attack on Ukraine just because America sends the Ukies a couple hundred missiles. Russia’s actions over the past few years shows how keen the Kremlin is at avoiding war with the U.S aka NATO.

But the U.S could do for Ukraine what Russia and China did for Iran: transfer missile tech. No huge infrastructure is required. Ukraine already mastered engine technology. Ukraine launched one of the most capable anti-ship missiles just months ago. A 300 km Mach 3.0 missile which surpass Turkey’s 250 km mach 0.9 anti-ship missiles. So Ukraine won’t need much technical help.

Anyway, I think Russia will lose in this standoff with Ukraine in the end. It’ll only create a permanent belt of insecurity along the Russian border and most likely lead to the transfer of sensitive technology to Turkey.

Both America and Europe are reluctant to transfer sensitive defense tech that Ukraine needs. For example, Ukraine needs to upgrade its military communications infrastructure to make the military more effective. It needs ship building tech to arm its weak navy compared to Russia in the black sea. It needs drone technology to help against the separatists, guidance systems and satellite technology to upgrade its defense capabilities.

Of all the countries Ukraine approached for help, ONLY Turkey showed serious willingness to transfer such sensitive technology to Ukraine. China tried to woo the Ukies by investing about $7 billion in Ukrainian infrastructure and then China applied its predatory economics on Ukraine when it crookedly bought much of Motor Sich’s shares in an attempt to takeover this critical Ukrainian enterprise. I’m sure you know the status of Motor Sich regarding defense, especially with manufacturing aircraft engines. Turkey needs the engine technology and is willing to share its drone, ship, and other defense technologies to acquire it from Ukraine. There’s news of Ukraine selling 50% of the shares of this enterprise to Turkey after expelling China from that same enterprise. The Ukies and Turkey are jointly working on the Akinci drone and even have a joint enterprise dedicated to that project and others. Ukraine provides the engine. Turkey provides the rest of the tech needed for the drone. There’s tech transfer involved in the deal, but just how much tech is not clear.

In the end, both countries need each other’s technology badly. The U.S, Europe and Russia are trying their best to prevent engine know-how reaching Turkey. Engine tech is the ONLY problem Turkey has regarding defense production. all other problems are minor and easily resolvable. But U.S, EU, and Russia are not going to transfer technology to Ukraine. they’d prefer to have Ukraine buy weapons from them and depend on them for its protection – something Ukraine doesn’t seem to be contented with. Not only will it keep Ukraine dependent on others, it’ll also cripple the Ukrainian arms industry. Turkey is a perfect and tempting solution to Ukraine’s problems. Together, these two can produce combat aircraft, drones, tanks, missiles, ships, that can outperform those by Russia, EU, and the U.S.A. Whether or not Ukraine shares its engine tech remains to be seen. But personally, I can’t see any better option for Ukraine than to play ball with Turkey, which the Ukies seems to moving towards.

Hehe I never stopped making sense mate, you did not bother reading before and that’s why you didn’t see it.

First of all , about the Neptune anti-ship missile you mentioned : There isn’t anything new in it, it was first revealed years ago and barely entering service now on a slow production rate, and its specs are nothing of a game-changer : it is a SUBSONIC missile, contrary to your claims, and is relatively short range.It is quite on par with Turkey’s missile, actually. By no means does it constitute a valid threat to the Russian navy. Look at the specs here. Here are a bit of info on the specs : https://defence-blog.com/news/ukrainian-navy-finally-accepts-its-first-neptun-cruise-missile-system.html#:~:text=The%20Neptune's%20unit%20includes%20six,is%20about%20900%20km%2Fh.

Here is a piece by retried Russian colonel on RT, and before you say it’s Propaganda, I would recommend you read it in full, it’s not long, and supports its claim by facts and arguments. I let you read it.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/451283-ukraine-neptune-cruise-missile/

Again, you misjudge the actual balance of power and the relevance of a single weapon system being present in a theater, you’ve been making that mistake since the beginning of that thread.

Yes, Ukraine ONCE had engine technology and made big planes. It was thanks to the Antonov design bureau and plants while it was still part of something called the USSR and directly benefited from Moscow’s tech transfers and shared know-how, joint R&D, just like the East-Germany did.

Without Russia at its side, Ukraine become a shadow of its former industrial self in that field.

Guess what happened mere months after the Maiden Coup happened ? Antonov and all of its industrial infrastructure were disbanded and liquidated, as Ukraine was already gripping with major economic problem following the long unrest. Russia was the sources of the parts and core technical elements, and without their cooperation, Antonov couldn’t survive, and with it, Motor Sichs. Ukraine by itself alone in its current state is a not an active member of the engine-manufacturing club, plain and simple.

As of now there isn’t a single R&D unit with Aeronautic specialists working on anything of relevance in the whole of Ukraine : that capability is dead and gone and entirely dependent on China’s loans, as you mentioned.

“Anyway, I think Russia will lose in this standoff with Ukraine in the end. It’ll only create a permanent belt of insecurity along the Russian border and most likely lead to the transfer of sensitive technology to Turkey.”

Russia has already won in that sector, and the belt of security it needs is comprised of the Donbass and the all-important Crimea, where its navy needs anchorage and the demonstrated capability to close waters to foreign navies if need be. The Donbass will provide the needed buffer zone it wants between possible NATO entrenchment and itself. Its goal is to keep it that way, and for now, I only see Washington and Europe backing down.

“Ukraine needs. For example, Ukraine needs to upgrade its military communications infrastructure to make the military more effective. It needs ship building tech to arm its weak navy compared to Russia in the black sea. It needs drone technology to help against the separatists, guidance systems and satellite technology to upgrade its defense capabilities.”

All of which will take years to ever be put in place with heavy industries lacking, dozens of billions in funding that Ukraine doesn’t have and cannot secure through additional loans as it is already reeling from a deep economic crisis ever since 2015. Yes, “one day, Ukraine might have all that”, but it’s still hollow as an actual development and the gap with RUssia capabilities will still prevent it from starting a war of reconquest on the East. Let alone Crimea that Moscow now considers its own and will go back at nothing to keep it, including sustained some painful losses and a bleeding nose (that probably won’t bleed considering the current balance of power).

I broadly agree with the situation of Antonov’s former aircraft manufacturing asset Motor Sichs and China’s usual predatory approach. That only further compounds my conviction that “knowledge” does not yet mean” production capability and development” for Ukraine. And just like Iran, even considering China ends up helping that down the line, it will at least take a decade to materialize. And just like Iran still cannot imagine winning a full conventional war with the US despite all its ability to harm its army, Ukraine will never try gaining back its lands as it would constitue a Casus Belli for Moscow. Just like Syria trying to get back the Golan today from Israel would mean the end of its military despite having the means to put some big scar within Tsahal ranks if it goes all in with its ballistic missile arsenal that it never once used to this day against them.

Turkey should thread very carefully in this matter, as Putin is watching his move and I do believe it is pushing its luck a bit too far. Time will tell whether Dogan really engages in anything meaningful with Kiev and engage into long-term, official Transfer-of-Technology endeavors, but in this case it should watch for more Russian fire on the Syrian and Libyan front. Moscow has the means and lever to destroy whatever’s left of Turkey’s interests in both countries and they absolutely remain a priority over everything else for their current leader.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the VKS finally propel the SAA into all of Turkey’s remaining jihadist pockets lingering up north and in the northeastern buffer-zone should they threaten Putin’s plans in Ukraine the way he seems inching towards. And just like the previous campaign, they will go around and besieged every area of Turkish military presence to make it irrelevant , costly and prone to withdrawal. All of that has happened before when Putin realized that Erdogan wasn’t playing ball, and the same hammer will fall down upon his head should he draw the wrong cards in Ukraine. His declaration about Ukraine joining NATO and his smart-ass ideas about sealing lucrative drone deal with the former Soviet state has alrady raised many eyebrows in the Kremlin. And the latter is carefully watching the advent of unacceptable developments.

We’ll see all of that soon enough. But I don’t see Turkey being a critical player in this whole affair.Now of course I could be wrong, but the above explains why I’m confident nothing spectacular will arise from the current context in the foreseeable future. Russia will “win” by sealing the status-quo further.

I do not see Turkey tangling with Russia what it perceives as its core sphere of influence and pretty much a backyard, and Erdogan is punching above its weight by trying to make such forays so far from home and close to Putin’s.

I didn’t want to reply to you after I spotted two obvious but serious lies in your comment. First you said Motor Sich can’t manufacture engines on its own, but I found many many articles online confirming the motor sich can manufacture engines start to finish. Yet, I can’t find any credible articles which proves that Motor Sich can’t make engines. The latest Turkish drone (Aksungur) is another evidence of this. I’m pretty confident Ukraine supplied the engine for that drone. It flies for 49 hours, carries glide bombs weighing as high as 350 kg, and has an altitude of up to 40,000 feet and a take off weight of 3,300 kg. This article categorically proves that Motor Sich can make engines and can solve Turkey’s engine problem: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a29775951/ukraine-unstoppable-missile/

China surely didn’t try to buy it for nothing. The Chinese knew what they were investing in, and it was such a threat to US military dominance that it had to pressure Ukraine politically to stop the deal.

You also claimed that Ukraine did not produce a mach 3 missile. Here’s a link for you to read: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a29775951/ukraine-unstoppable-missile/

If Turkey manages to learn from Motor Sich, future weapons will be even a greater challenge for Turkey’s enemies to contend with.

Your reply certainly took time to materialize nonetheless still proves as null and weak as before in countering my points I’m afraid.

“First you said Motor Sich can’t manufacture engines on its own, but I found many many articles online confirming the motor sich can manufacture engines start to finish. Yet, I can’t find any credible articles which proves that Motor Sich can’t make engines.

I never said that. I simply said that it did could not produce world-class jet engines, like in “turbofans”, which are another capability altogether compared to smaller and easier to build drone engines, and this is something you’ll learn today. Iran produces many types of rocket, cruise missile and drone engines yet after 30 years is still unable to rebuild a F-14’s TF-30s or a F4’s J79 from scratch yet despite a sustained effort. That’s for a reason : we aren’t even talking the same class of industrial prowess and infrastructure, let alone materials like poly-alloys that are unique to such advanced post-combustion capable jet engines.

My exact lines were : ” “knowledge” does not yet mean” production capability and development” for Ukraine” .

And I added that whatever Motor Sich built or could build en masse in a *meaningful way* as to alter the strategic balance was dependent on Chinese loans and ToT. You don’t seem to realize how dire Ukraine’s economic situation is at the moment. Embarking on advances military-industrial project is for now out of its league. Its jetfighter/airplanes manufacturing capacity virtually ended with the disbanding of its dedicated branch “Antonov” that was disbanded mere months after the Maiden Coup and the Crimea/Eastern Ukraine affair and their R&D then essentially focused on missiles.

Ukraine has stopped making planes from start to finish, and that’s what I was referring to, not the missile, not Motor Sichs as a whole, my point were clear and precise and only your renowned intellectual dishonesty in this thread could call them lies like you did. Of course you either didn’t bother reading to avoid addressing,

“I’m pretty confident Ukraine supplied the engine for that drone”

So let get this straight : your “beliefs” and “personal conjectures” now make fact that allow you to call other people “liars”. How do you even want to be taken seriously in any discussion with takes likes that. Well, you’ll allow me to turn my belief that you’re full of shit into a given, so I guess that makes us even on this.

“China surely didn’t try to buy it for nothing. The Chinese knew what they were investing in, and it was such a threat to US military dominance that it had to pressure Ukraine politically to stop the deal.”

Here come your fantasies again. China already makes a full range of near hyper-sonic anti-ship carrier-killing ballistic missile and supersonic cruise missiles that pose a dire threat to US naval hegemony in the Pacific theater and certainly didn’t wait for Motor Sichs to come up with new technology. China’s unique DF-10 has been developed and fully manufactured years ago already and China’s Aerospace Industries have all the capabilities to produce their defense needs.

When it comes to cruise-missiles, there is some reading for you : Enjoy the reading, there is plenty of material about the DongFengs as they have been ringing alarm bells everywhere in US defense circles for years and years now.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/china_chinese_army_missile_systems_vehicles/df-10a_cruise_missile_surface-to-surface_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video_12601165.html

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/df-100-chinas-biggest-threat-us-navy-145172

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/us-navy-has-no-good-answer-chinas-carrier-killer-missile-threat-167942

Now let me introduce you to the CX-1. Those are Mach 3 anti-ship missile, production started as early as 2014.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CX-1_Missile_Systems

According to open-source information, The CX-1 were either reverse-engineered or benefited from the many military-technical cooperation deals that China secured with Russia over the years, just like they did with their J-11 , which is basically a Su-27 copy.

Now does it really look like that such a military superpower that has been developing and refining world-class military hardware for decades, and now sometimes surpassing US naval defense capabilities since the early 2000s really needs to shoulder and beg for an economically bankrupt country such as Ukraine and its incomparably smaller military production capabilities with merely “one” seemingly interesting assets that “claims” to be Mach 3 and only works “on paper” according to the very link you provided ?

At best, Ukraine will be good for Turkey’s drone production in the future, not the other way around, for an asset that anyway will by itself never make a modicum of difference with regards to Russia and either theaters of importance, would it be Crimea or the Donbass, so that little diversion of yours was a nice try but still pathetically falls short to address anything let alone take down my previous post on Russia’s numerous options to continue reigning in its foes in this region.

Ukraine’s experimental anti-ship assets are already surpassed at every level by Russia’s integrated , layered air-defense apparatus and so by a very long shot, and it will be years until the country can produce these in quantity. Again, having prototypes and know-how does not equal producing reliably in mass.

Anyway I provided two links claiming the very contrary to yours, one of which being a staple of defense publications for decades. An interesting fact that you conveniently disregarded, while claiming I “lie”. Coming up with a link itself admitting everything is still ” on paper” while I brought up a competing link before is by no means proof of your solidity. It only means there is ample contradictory data available on this prototype that sow doubt on its actual capability beyond mere PR claims. Kyle Mikozami himself admits that all is in theory several times in his article you pulled out.

Here is another defense outlet claiming the Neptune’s top speed is no more than 900 Mph : https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2020/february/8034-newest-ukrainian-r-360-cruise-missile-of-neptun-coastal-system-unveiled.html

And just like before, Navy Recognition , juste lik Defense Update and Jane’s, is a recognized and historically prolific defense publication that you cannot disqualify out of hand.

The *only* outlet claiming that the Neptune has supersonic speed so far is your Popular Mechanics, a self-described general science & technology publication not specialized on Defense, and itself overtly mentioning that the Neptune’s speed is theoretical and “on paper”. It seems like quite an optimistic assessment on your part to base yourself on that dubious article alone to be able to dismiss my own data as a pack of lies.

All the while, back on the core topic we discussed , points 1 to 4 above remain wholly unaddressed as of today. So long as you cannot produce solid counter-argument to any of them.

Sorry to burst the bubble of your “delayed revenge” , but there is simply nothing of importance or relevance in your latest reply that actually beats any of my previous data and assessment. You’ve made redundant claims and brought up irrelevant links. If anything, it is putting even more of your general lack of military culture to light, I’m afraid.

Something more to read: https://asiatimes.com/2020/12/turkey-ukraine-forging-strategic-depth-in-the-black-sea/