Iran’s IRGC Successfully Test-Launched Ballistic Missile From Underground

Jew much :)

Is that all you’ve got? You always lack logic or fact to challenge my claims. It’s quite easy to resort to insults. I am gonna deal with people like you on this from provided SF doesn’t block me. Anytime I penalize you for a comment, it’ll be based of facts and logic you are unlikely to disprove. you even have the guts to call your comment “Objective”. You are the most subjective commentator on this forum. You’ve called me CIA, Jew, maybe next you’ll call me Mossad or FSB. Because you don’t do much research before commenting or you are unable to see through the web of lies. So you can’t study someone’s history and current actions to know what they are aiming for. You are the Cunt, only you aren’t aware yet.

I know exactly what you are. A Western educated gulf Arab working for his government in order to create and control a new narrative. Lobbying to change the hearts and minds so that your country can continue to be a slave…or are you the idiot sunni Lebanese guy begging Iron Zion to save you from Hezbollah? lmfao…fkn shill, stfu and drink your oil.

Strange you don’t mention Iran’s long, long time ally in your “interesting” narrative. Why is that ? It’s presense in the Middle East, and around the world isn’t something easy to miss. While I agree Iran has been slowed by the efforts of The City of London designed to strangle the country, Iran continues to grow, at the very least holds it’s own, backed up by it’s allies. Zionism=Evil didn’t mention in his very astute list of Iran’s assets, and capabilities is “highly industrialized.” Syria with allied assistance has whupped Coalition ass once, and halfway to whuppin’ it’s ass again. Syria is also busy keeping Turk military divisions busy that would otherwise be playing Army in Libya, and possibly annoying the Greeks. Erdogan has opened two theatre’s of war, and another on the back burner simmering. Playing both world powers in an attempt to gain advantage in advancing his own pipe dream. US is failing in all respects. Being destroyed from the inside by it’s Zionist Khazar Bolshevik run US Government. It’s own military forces with it. The City of London must have a replacement military all planned out, and staged. But, when the world see’s 81% (280 million) of US citizens executed before their eyes, it may give it’s replacement military, and the world pause. Perhaps noticing the same thing is being done in their countries. Russia, and it’s allies are the only countries actively resisting the Globalists and their UN Agenda 21/2030 Sustainability Development Guidelines, a component in the Zionist Khazar criminal Banking Cabal’s one world Government agenda. NATO countries have signed on to this world de-population agenda, and are doing their part in their countries, and as many other countries. Bombing civilian infrastructure, and civilians is the US military’s trademark. NATO military forces have taken up the habit. As Jacob Rothschild told Pooroshenko puppet, instructing him to attack the Donbass, “Kill as many people as possible.” That set of institutions hasn’t worked out all that well for The City of London. None of the objectives have been reached, and despite US Government backing up Ukraine’s military, it’s unable to advance. Courtesy Russia. The City of London wants Ukraine, and some other neighboring countries,,for several reasons. The common border with Russia, and the real prize, Crimea.. Russia snatched Crimea away without firing a shot, and 100% legally. All this, Venezuela, Cuba, several African countries, and the Middle East are connected. Lebanon experiences internal issues, and the pretend Jews picking at it externally. At the risk of Hezbollah stomping it’s ass again. IDF is pitiful, with it’s silly little attacks that are totally ineffective, while it brags, how tough it is. Bluff, bluster, and nothing else. Meanwhile Iran has developed, and continues to, weapons, strategy, and tactics, against the Western threats. US attacked Iran with bio-weapons, Iran’s medical research and development, came up with treatments, working on an actual non-toxic vaccine. This despite US piling on more sanctions to deny medical supplies, and humanitarian aid. Russia’s Il-76 cargo aircraft brought much of this, China as well. Also to Italy, Serbia, (NATO countries)upon request, after being denied by their NATO allies. There’s no reason to start a world war against US Government, it’s crashing itself at increasing rates, it’s ability to wage war with it. US Government has been supported by The City of London for decades, US GDP is squat, with a trillion dollar a year defense budget it has nothing to show for it. Who’s paying that bill ?

You talked about so many things that it diverts from the current topic. I think you are one of the Shiite trolls who respond whenever a comment does expose Iran’s true face to its ignorant supporters.

Iran isn’t avoiding a war with the U.S because it sees America imploding. Iran avoids a war because the regime has a much bigger goal that most on SouthFront don’t understand. they don’t understand because of their limited knowledge of Islamic history. My effort is meant to educate as many as possible as to the real goal for the Mullahs in Iran, cos we’ve had such people before in history – hundreds of years back. Understanding history and studying their current actions will open your eyes to their overall game-plan.

I have talked much about this. I used to support Iran before, until I did some in-depth research, studied the history of Shiites, studied Iran’s history after the revolution, analysed comments by their military and civilian leaders, and watched their actions carefully. Then I realized how wrong I was to support them. I’ll argue that they are far more dangerous than Zionism.

I have made several comments on Iran that should help you understand the regime in ways you never did before. You also need to do research on claims I made in my comments. Check up my profile and follow me to see all the recent comments I made. You can later unfollow me after learning all you could from my comments. I don’t have the strength to start posting all over again.

Try to keep up.

Yup, you must be one of the new Gulf Arab allies shilling for zionism…son blatantly obvious you’re whore.

Yeah cash reserve’s may be draining fast but at least iran doesnt have a 23 trillion dollar debt and counting with no hope of ever repaying that back in our lifetime added to that a waning currency slowly losing its prestige and Zionists running the country in the background hell bent on destroying what remains of what was once a great and proud empire. Clutching onto straws is the saying that comes to my mind when I read comments like yours about how great the USA is (was). The us is in no position now to take on iran and let’s be clear Iran does not want to take on the US. It merely wants to be able to exist in the global community and trade freely without the fanatical wild faced Zionists in tel Aviv and in Washington calling for the blood of all Iranians and imposing sanctions that have brought Iran to where it is today. Your truly blinded by your own patriotism and cannot see the trees from the forests of the stars and stripes flags waving in your eyes.

Thank you for a worthy and enlightening comment. Much of what you said about Saddam is true, but I still think he had more guts than the current Iranian regime. You wisely said that Iran has ten times the capabilities of Saddam’s Iraq. You also said Iran’s terrain is a natural defense against invasion. Both these Saddam lacked. I may be wrong, but my research on Saddam’s attitude shows that given the current Iranian power, he’ll not have hesitated to launch attacks on both Israel and U.S bases should they sufficiently provoke him. Saddam had no precision long-range missiles that could pick up military targets in Israel. If he did have some means to do that, it was limited. That cannot be said of Iran. In a conventional war, I have no doubt Iran will defeat Israel, but Saddam’s Iraq couldn’t have been able to. Iran, if it wanted to, can bomb every U.S base within its reach, and also bomb much of Israel. But that is not how Iran operates. It’ll rather train and arm militias to fight for it than overtly wage war. It builds domestic power to deter war from reaching its borders. It’s game-plan is to conquer the Sunni countries of the Middle East and take over Mecca, Madina, and Jerusalem so it can easily spread Shiism among the Muslims of the World. The thing is, it wants to achieve this without getting into an interstate fight. It keeps using proxies that lead to the destabilization of other countries.

I explained in another comment how Iran threatens both the Sunni Muslim world and the very existence of the U.S economy and Israel. While true Sunnis are not allies of the U.S and Israel, they understand that Iran poses a bigger threat than both the West and Israel combined. If you can locate that comment, it should explain a lot.

I want Trump to win for the same reason that you want him to lose. The Iranian regime understands Trump’s language better than any political game. Trump gave them a list of impossible demands to fulfill. If the Iranian regime complies with even half of these demands, the Shiite threat to the Sunni Muslim world will disappear for the meantime. But if Iran does not stop its attempt to export the revolution, thereby destabilizing Sunni countries and corrupting the beliefs of many Sunnis, then a Middle East on fire is better than one ruled by Iran. In this case, I support a war with Iran even if it burns the Middle East, provided the regime collapses. We (Sunnis) can afford to have America seize our oil or lands, but we cant afford to let Iran seize our religion. Our religion is far more important to us than any temporary worldly material.

Do not think I support the corrupt gulf monarchies of the Middle East. but their evil is certainly less than the one presented by the Shiite aqeeda.

So, Donald Trump wining is a good thing to me. He’s unlikely to backtrack and isn’t likely to shy away from war if push comes to shove. It’ll mean two options for Iran: Give up your revolutionary agenda, or fight a devastating war you are very likely to lose. I think they’ll pick the first option, maybe temporarily.

Truth be told, I don’t see how the Sunnis, Americans, and Israeli will peacefully reconcile with Iran regarding its revolutionary agenda. I think this war will come sooner than most expect.

That’s where we disagree. I consider the Gulf monarchies as the number one evil on a peaceful and hopefully progressist Arab world on the long-run way beyond the sole Middle-East. Propf being their incessant meddling in smaller North African countries namely Tunisia , Marocco and Algeria whenever a resemblance of secularism appears in a given corner which they instantly try to overtake or at least counter by injection billions into the most reactionnary fringes of their political class, creating new islamist parties with virtually infinite means like Enahda in Tunisia.

Iran in its worth day doesn’t come close to the House of Saud when it comes to the strictest and most generazlied form of Salafist Islam, women’s condition and the overall indsutrical development index doesn’t come close to Iran’s with all its own shortcomings, and so despite all the existing pressures on the latter. Not because the Mullahs are better, but Iranian society has refused the implementation of the Islamization project at cultural level, whereas the majority of average Sunni citizen consider it a norm and we can understand why : they’re born with it, and their nation-state even structurally is still of a tribal nature, which is a primitive and much less stable national fabric than Iran’s which is much more on par with its western counterparts ethnically and politically. The US bears great responsibility in empowering and unifying those evils into one global oganization which is the GCC. THe Saudi outreach and scholar influence at the four corners of the globe surpasses Iran’s by a great margin. From Morocco to Indonesia, Malaysia and even for a brief moment the Contras in Latin America during the Reagan era.

Also, I will ALWAYS prefer a world without war to a world on fire that you’re so blatantly wishing for without realizing that the current situation is the exact product of similar thoughtless adventurism on the part of previous intervventionist US administration, namely Bush Jr which turned secular Iraq into the world’s biggest den of Al-Qaeda, which in turn spawned ISIS has one of its former branches. We have hard data and a million Iraqi death, plus the disintegration of the country as a unified and stable entity as we once knew (and blessed by the US to use chemical weapons when it suited Rumsfeld to use it against Iranian troops).

The US trying to wage a war of invasion in Iran is tantamount to a joke, an unimaginable kind of quagmyre that the US is sure to lose geopolitically along with at least a million ordinary Iranians considering their firepower. No administration will ever dare do that, as I’ve pointed out in other comments. You should stop getting this out of your mind. The maximum sanctions regime has proven time and again it never hurts regime, but the people, and creates more anti-US resentment that it yields submission of any sort from the enemy regime. It didn’t work in North Korea, is not working in Syria, or Venezuela, or Cuba, has not worked on Iran either, and pretty much throws all of these in China and RUssia’s wide open arms. Now of course Trump is free to dig his head further into the sand and go for even more catastrophes if reelected. History will tell how the US destroyed its standing and whatever remains of its economic edge in a protracted conflict where a much more powerful Iran than anything the US has ever faced since 45 can inflict damage and death unseen to newer generations. Kinetically destroying Iran will satisfy ideologue, but destroy US interest first and foremost, just as the methodical destruction of Iraq did.

Overall I do not see how a middle-east governed by a Sunni petrocrats umbralla is anything good for the world and people in the region let alone in comparison to one supposedly ruled by Iran. In fact, I wish no hegemony at all, a constant balance of power is always a better situation to wish for than some unquestioned hegemony as you seem to be inching towards.

Okay, let’s look at this from a broader perspective. Saudi Arabia and the GCC exporting Salafi Islam around the world. Have you wondered why they do this? Do you think they do it in the interest of Islam and the Muslim world? Certainly not. over 90% of the GCC citizens cannot be considered learned Muslims. Saudi Arabia trains scholars in each Sunni Country, just enough number of scholars to help them keep control of the Muslim world. These scholar preach and teach in Madrassas, Masjids, and everywhere in the communities.

These scholars receive aid from Saudi Arabia and other GCC countries and never exposes Saudi hypocrisy to the Muslims. While the Scholars teach the real pure Islam in most cases, they don’t go so far as to discus whether or not the Saudi government has authority by Islam to govern the two holy site (Mecca and Medina) or whether the Saudi government policies are Shariah compliant (which is not the case looking at their alliance with America and their providing them bases: something Allah and the prophet strictly forbid). Monarchical rule itself is Unislamic. There is a clearly defined process for choosing the Ruler in Islam, and the wealth of the state is not for the rulers to do as they please. Surely the Saudis won’t agree to this.

So my friend, forget this semblance of Shariah in Saudi Arabia. they do this only to avoid criticism of Muslims around the World. The government never works by Shariah. Saudi Arabia props up the U.S dollar through the Petrodollar. America is one of Islam’s greatest enemies considering the millions of Muslims it has killed over the years. Something Muslims will never forget, nor forgive. This alone I think should open your eyes.

To appreciate the above facts, observe the current struggle within the Sunni Muslim world for the Minds of Muslims around the World. The Muslim Brotherhood (led by Turkey) And the Saudi camp of hypocrites (which includes all the GCC, except Qatar). Turkey is wining this struggle as more and more Muslims recognize Saudi Arabia as the hypocrite. I know Turkey has a history with the West, but that history predates Erdogan and its effects cannot be removed overnight. Change has to be gradual or it risks people’s rebellion.

I disagree regarding Iran’s foreign meddling being less troublesome for the World. In fact, Iran’s foreign meddling is deadlier than anything Saudi Arabia did. For starters, Iran has STANDING ARMIES in several countries despite facing stiff resistance from more powerful foes. Militias in Lebanon (Hezbollah), Iraq (PMU), Afghanistan (Liwa Fatemiyoun), Yemen (Houthis), and Syria (I don’t know their name yet), and others in the Making. These groups are beyond control of the host countries. They are far more loyal to Iran than any government including theirs. I want you to name just one such unofficial army for Saudi Arabia in another country. And don’t tell me ISIS, cos every Sunni society rejects ISIS and Al-qaeda and they have to operate in secret, unlike their Shiite counterparts.

Now, these groups can get into a fight with any country and invite destruction upon their country. Take Lebanon’s economic turmoil as an example. The U.S is destroying Lebanon’s economy in order to weaken Hezbollah. I hope you get what I mean. When Hezbollah has problems with Israel, the Lebanese government has NO say over what Hezbollah can or cannot do despite Lebanon being at risk of a devastating war it didn’t look for. Hezbollah’s activities in Syria can produce a domestic dimension and Lebanese civilians can die or lose property to damage. The same thing applies to all other militias. Therefore, Iran’s brand of evangelism is far deadlier to the host countries than Saudi Arabia’s.

The reason Iranians value tradition over Islam despite claiming to be an Islamic country is because Shiism is not Islam. Prominent Sunni scholars generations past have concluded that it is a mix of some Islamic teachings and Zoroastrianism (Fire-Worshiping) practiced in ancient Persia. The first Shiites were Persians. I don’t want to go into this history now.

Finally, I am not ashamed to say a Middle East on fire is better than one ruled by Shiism. The Middle East constitute less than 30% of the Muslim population of the world, I think. But it has strong influence on Muslims around the world. Should Iran control it, Shiism is bound to spread like forest fire. Every Sunni Muslim country that opposes the doctrine of Shiism will see devastating domestic fighting involving Shiite militias and the state authorities. I know because it happened in History and the Mullahs in Iran are the exact type of people who pulled that kind of catastrophic event hundreds of years ago. A devastating war that brings down the Iranian regime is far better than peace that leads to Iran controlling it through internal revolutions.

“So my friend, forget this semblance of Shariah in Saudi Arabia. they do this only to avoid criticism of Muslims around the World. The government never works by Shariah.”

That one show quite a big disconnect from reality, considering beheading and limb amputation occurs monthly in the KSA, my friend. Hundreds of executions are performed sometimes by crucifixion every year and are decried by the UN and its associated NGOs. Heads are left on display for the public to see sometimes for days. Now you should take your own advice, and open your eyes.

“Saudi Arabia props up the U.S dollar through the Petrodollar. America is one of Islam’s greatest enemies considering the millions of Muslims it has killed over the years. Something Muslims will never forget, nor forgive. This alone I think should open your eyes.”

As you said, the MUSLIMs, the regular citizens being 80% opposed to their Kingdom’s actions both towards the US and its de-facto rapprochement with Israel over the past years in its geopolitical struggle with Shiite powerhouse Iran. That does not make the ruling class any less unconditionally obedient to US willing. 10,000 troops and total dependency of its military to Washington is the only factor they never forget.

“The reason Iranians value tradition over Islam despite claiming to be an Islamic country is because Shiism is not Islam. Prominent Sunni scholars generations past have concluded that it is a mix of some Islamic teachings and Zoroastrianism (Fire-Worshiping) practiced in ancient Persia. The first Shiites were Persians. I don’t want to go into this history now.”

No, because theocratic, non-secular radical Islam has never been embraced by modern Iran. Had the CIA not destroyed the burgeoning parliamentary democracy led by nationalist Mossadegh in 1953 in its infamous coup, Islam would have probably never even remotely affected Iranian society again.

“In fact, Iran’s foreign meddling is deadlier than anything Saudi Arabia did. For starters, Iran has STANDING ARMIES in several countries despite facing stiff resistance from more powerful foes. Militias in Lebanon (Hezbollah), Iraq (PMU), Afghanistan (Liwa Fatemiyoun), Yemen (Houthis), and Syria”

Long before ANY of those “standing armies” ever existed, the US was busy surrounding Iran with 35 major bases everywhere they could,namely in the GCC of course, but also in invaded and occupied Iraq, and invaded and occupied Afghanistan. Chronology is important here, pay attention. The Houthis and Liwa Fatemiyoun are not direct Iranian proxies. Iran, just like the US and Israel, developed circumstantial relations with those groups in order to help them hurt their enemies more efficiently once they became entangled in conflict. It’s only fair game considering the US and Israel did the exact same against Syria by basically arming anyone willing to pick up arms against Assad, including and mostly comprised of GCC-supported jihadi paramilitaries such as Ahar Al Sham, Al-Nusra, Nouredeen Harakat al Zinki, and many others that ended regrouping currently under the Hayat Tahrir Al Sham label. Funded and sheltered by the GCC, equipped by US arms with dedicated conduits for years and years. Now Turkey seems to have picked up the pieces in northern Idlib ever since the US and Qatar backtracked from direct support after a string of military losses since the Russian 2015 intervention.

That also answers your query “to name just one such unofficial army for Saudi Arabia in another country.” Most HTS members are of Saudi origins, and this is documented facts.

Again, chronology is important and you seem to willingly ignore it. FIRST the US, Europe and Israel did everything they could to help propel any anti-Assad fighting groups (Israel long sheltered, and provided air cover the Zinki member training and setting up camp in “their ” side of the Occupied Golan) to win its struggle in the civil war starting 2011. Soon after, it became apparent that past 2012 the groups with the most political sway and financial + military means were the aforementioned groups all linked ideologically and financially to either Qatar, the KSA, or the UAE.

Do you realize that on the ground, the GCC along with its US backers have been busy trying to topple a secular government with hordes of Salafist paramilitary groups of which some directly derive from Al-Nusra, the former Syrian branch of Al-Qaeda that “‘administratively” split from the core on express demand to its Leader Al-Julani from Ayman al-Zawahiri himself, whereas Iran has been fighting hard along with Russia to repel those jihad extremists ? this is the world upside down and you keep on bashing Iran preferentially, this is nuts. Iran was instrumental in stopping the initial ISIS drive towards Baghdad while the regular, US-trained army was busy fleeing from all its lines and the US was busy … watching.

Also, can you remind me the new sub-conflict currently raging between pro-UAE separatists and the KSA-backed “government” ? these belligerents are so busy pushing agendas through their proxy mercenary forces that they can’t even agree on a common goal against Houthis anymore, and you dare tell me that IRAN is somehow the worst offender here ?

“Finally, I am not ashamed to say a Middle East on fire is better than one ruled by Shiism. ”

You should be though. The mere sentence sounds like you are acutely irrational, read yourself. Wishing permanent regional chaos when we do know of the dire human consequences of that kind of policies is unbelievable in 2020. Again you seem somehow unable to acknowledge hard facts and field realities, even recent ones. Last time people in power in the US went your way, they started a fire that ripped through the entire region and brought with it a million dead Iraqis, a secular regime was replaced by Al-Qaeda all over, and sectarian strife drags on to this very day, plus Iran that you hate so universally took control of most its society as a direct consequence of the US invasion and devastation of the Iraqi state fabric.

” devastating war for the Middle East that brings down the Iranian regime is far better than peace that leads to Iran controlling it through internal revolutions”

Well prepare to be disappointed since this kinetic aggression and mayhem probably won’t ever happen and I’m glad it offers the Persian people leeway to handle their own regime the way they like it, with the needed level of sacrifice they deem fit, like they did in 79. What is worse is a US-powered, GCC-controlled Arab world consolidating its malign influence all the way to North Africa and preventing secular Revolution from prospering, promoting Salafist Islam instead everywhere they can replacing the State wherever it is absent from its duties. Algeria , Tunisia, you name it. But of course I don’t wish for ANY hegemony, would it be Shiite Iran or Sunni GCC, as none of these blocs have anything to do with any kind of progressism, as they compete in two different sides of the same corrupt and backwards ideology that has no place in today’s world.

“When Hezbollah has problems with Israel, the Lebanese government has NO say over what Hezbollah can or cannot do despite Lebanon being at risk of a devastating war it didn’t look for. ”

First off, Hezbollah had every right to stop overtly hostile and self-declared enemies of their country like Al-Nusra that was setting up positions and camps to infiltrate Lebanon and enlarge the Syrian battlefront there. The people demonstrated overall support to that action and even anti-Hezbollah official such as Hariri briefly praised their major operation to clean up Al-Qaeda thugs at the border in several high-profil sweeps. It actually helped Hezbollah regain some of the lost popularity it had lost at the time!

Then, it seems you have absolutely no clue as to the internal position of Lebanon society, that has a whole passionately opposes Israel in a united way because generations upon generation certainly haven’t forgotten either the 1982 massacred that Israeli-aligned pro-Gemayal and Phalangists faction did to them, nor did they forget the flattening of Beirut, or the 17 year long occupation of the southern lands and all the abuses it entailed for as many years, including child labor.

Israel is the single, most hated external entity for the immense majority of the Lebanese political and religious spectrum and this outweigh their own fratricidal feuds, as most view them as abusers and land-grabbers that are bent on humiliating their country in every way they can by breaching their airspace daily and performing non-stop incursion in border area, pushing the bar as far as PHYSICALLY moving border fences around the separation line, only to provoke crisis with the UNIFIL and regular Lebanese Army rushing it to put an end to it. They know full well that Israel is after the Litani river, just as it coveted it in the 80s.

You want a good indicator of it ? during the 2006 war, a surprisingly broad alliance occured between the Lebanese Army, Hezbollah and even several Christian brigade that took on Israeli armor in village under their control, which the IDF brass absolutely didn’t see coming.

I wonder if you are trying to mislead people following our discussion. When I talked about Saudi Arabia not working by the Shariah, I meant the Shariah is not applicable to the government. Only citizens face it. The government does anything it wants including, allying with the U.S, Israel, propping up the U.S economy which America uses to build arms and destroy Muslim countries, kill Muslims in Yemen by starvation and indiscriminate bombing, supporting dictators in Egypt and Libya. These are not the actions of a Shariah-compliant government. That is what I meant.

You are trying to compare Hezbollah, PMU, Liwa Fatemiyoun, etc with the likes of ISIS. These guys are far more dangerous than ISIS and Al-Nusra or Al-Qaeda. Shiite Militias enjoy some form of legitimacy despite not being under government control. They act based on policies different from the governments of their host countries, and can invite disaster – just like what is happening in Lebanon today. Are you denying that these groups are sponsored, armed, trained, and controlled by Iran? Are you challenging me to provide proofs because you feel Iran has done a good job of masking its involvement? If that is what you are asking of me, I’ll provide it, but first, you should disprove the fact that Iran officially seeks to export its revolution. I can provide links to indisputable sources to this regard.

Saudi Arabia and the U.S trained these rebel groups and terrorists in Syria to serve only but the temporary aim of overthrowing Assad. There is no plan for these groups to morph into permanent unofficial armies after the job is done. That is not how the U.S operates. it does create rebels and terrorists, but doesn’t maintain them as a PERMANENT AND LEGITIMATE unofficial army. Please, get the distinction of “permanence and legitimacy”. Another thing to note is, both Saudi Arabia and America deny responsibility of training or arming ISIS, even though both are guilty.

The rest of your comments about the U.S., GCC, UK, etc is all true, but not on topic. The topic of our conversation are: 1. Is the Saudi government a TRULY Sunni Shariah government? 2. Between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which country exports the deadliest religious-oriented policies?

ALSO NOTE – ALL THESE IRANIAN PROXY ARMIES HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON: THEY ARE ALL SHIITES OR DOMINATED BY SHIITES EVEN IF SHIITES ARE A MINORITY IN THE HOST NATION.

The U.S and its allies push policies that risks the lives of thousands, but does that issue a moral pass for Iran to do the same? Especially when the lives of millions of Syrians, Iraqis, or Lebanese is on the line.

“I wonder if you are trying to mislead people following our discussion. […] These are not the actions of a Shariah-compliant government. That is what I meant.”

In this case, I stand corrected as we seem to actually agree on that side of the matter, technically, thanks for clarifying your point. What I actually wanted to add is that they, on top of all those non-hallal, “haram” activities that prove both the fallacy and hypocrisy of their proclaimed love of religion and the Holy word of Allah, Saudi authorities STILL, on top of all their many crimes, manage to enforce its worst angles to their population and do anything within their power to make it spawn anywhere they hold sway, namely in north Africa. The cradle of their power and self-legitimizing manifesto stems from the proclamation (i.e. propaganda) of them being the best representatives of a Shariah-compliant world. Of course its many “virtues” are not applied to themselves and their planeloads of super-luxury escorts or the elite orbiting around ruling families, or even foreign investors.

“You are trying to compare Hezbollah, PMU, Liwa Fatemiyoun, etc with the likes of ISIS. These guys are far more dangerous than ISIS and Al-Nusra or Al-Qaeda.”

There we will still disagree. My point is that they are equally dangerous and destructive. Only hard data counts and the likes of ISIS and Al-Qaeda have killed FAR more Muslims than Shiite militias. Not because the latter are more humane but because the current underlying geopolitical configuration supporting them enables them to do so. Technically they have the biggest powers at their side within the strict scope of their anti-Iran crusade.

“Shiite Militias enjoy some form of legitimacy despite not being under government control. They act based on policies different from the governments of their host countries, and can invite disaster […] I can provide links to indisputable sources to this regard.”

Because in the case of Lebanon, the said governments have proven inept at providing their people with a reliable means of military defense or deterrence, and Tehran exploited this big time, where Hezbollah gradually reached the peak of its notoriety in the eyes of Muslims and Christians alike by proving during 17 years of Israeli occupation appearing as the single, biggest able fighting force with the means and motivation to inflict real damage on their troops at the border and finally make them pack and go in 2000. They just had to jump on the train by aptly recognizing which horse to bet on and it paid off. This tendency only grew further in 2006, as I pointed out, where the Lebanese army was negligible at best in its military role in comparison. The people again witnessed what force actually fought to repel the invader. Now may I ask, if the US and Europe are so dead-set on condemning Hezbollah at every turn replacing the role of the institutions, why don’t they accept the Lebanese government repeated request of a real air-defense apparatus to regain sovereignty on their skies and prevent Israeli incursions ? Should they acquire that capability, Hezbollah would drastically lose legitimacy. So far, I only see Israel feeding them with exactly the needed level of resentment they need to keep on winning enough hearts and minds to keep existing. The “disaster” was invited by them in 2006 when they starting a devastating campaign against the whole of Lebanon and led unlikely alliances to form between Christian maronites and both Sunni and Shiite Muslims. And yes, before you mention it, there is currently a big crisis engulfing Lebanon from inside, but it concerns the WHOLE of their political class, not just Hezbollah.

When it comes to the PMU, you can only blame Washington for having so clumsily played the very same game albeit by failing precisely what Iran achieved: picking a sectarian side and organizing it properly to have a hand in governing circles and key military posts alike. Iran does not hide its predominant role in Iraq, and reciprocally Iraq doesn’t either. Iran’s position as a prime political, economic and military partner is officially recognized as such, recently even pro-US Sunni officials have requested Iran to come and offer military hardware to strengthen their air-defense apparatus, have you heard? Yet I agree, there is indeed a great divide as to popular perception of it. But we are really in some 50-50 scenario, not anything crucially pro-US or Pro-Iran. Iran simply holds more cards by having literally built part of the new post-Saddam war machine, precisely what the US has also been trying to do with its own allies in town.

And about Hezb being an Iran-funded proxy: I never said they aren’t. Annually, Tehran funnels an estimated $800 million to Hezbollah, their war machine is mainly comprised of Iran-made hardware and weapon systems. I simply said they uphold the very same counter-practice as their adversaries. The US has been gradually making forays in to the middle-east with the overt goal of strangling Iran ever since the Revolution, and even more so with the Clinton administration and on. Bush decided to first attack Afghanistan after 9/11, and take down Iraq in the mix a couple years after, by brilliantly surfing on the patriotic drive emanating from the tragic and criminal terrorist attacks in NY, with the explicit displayed intent of “taking on Iran next”. The political message was not even hidden. And Tehran reacted accordingly. As the US started surrounding the country with 35 bases and ever increasing its naval deployment in the PG, Iran saw a necessity AND opportunity in creating its proxy militias to enlarge a prospective future theater of conflagration with the US in the event of a total war, on top of focusing its industrial effort in developing A2/AD arsenal, with the relevant sensors and infrastructure.. It’s basic asymmetrical doctrine, of which the Mullah have made no secret, ever. I do not see in which way that makes Iran worse (or better) than its GCC-backed opponents. I mean what did you actually expect? that they just watch you consolidate coercive forces all around them arms crossed doing nothing to counter it and wait for the day you finally choose your moment to strike them from all sides ?

“Saudi Arabia and the U.S trained these rebel groups and terrorists in Syria to serve only but the temporary aim of overthrowing Assad.”

Precisely. And in what way does it make their criminal level of deadly cynic and its many long term consequence any less devastating than what we saw in Afghanistan where they supposedly trained “temporary Mujahedeen” to beat the Russian and then left the Afghan people fend for itself in perpetual warlord conflicts between Islamic factions among which good old Ben Laden? What kind of order currently governs regions of Idlib controlled by HTS today other than strict application of Shariah law ? Same with EVERY BIT of territory they once held in Syria before the Russia-backed SAA reconquest campaign gradually rolled them back. Evidence has been plenty, eyewitness accounts literally by the tens of thousands. Besides, from a moral and philosophical standpoint, using the biggest evils possible imaginable on Earth to wage war against a lesser enemy and let them stain the host country with their countless heinous crimes just to accomplish a geopolitical objective is a crime by every standard to begin with, and entirely punishable by the ICC. Indeed enabling genocidal bastards is plain complicity in their war crimes and worst abuses, you won’t tell me I’m wrong on that, even simply legally. Where is the “moral high ground” that once stood at the center of US propaganda efforts worldwide when intervening, I wonder. Have they totally given up being clean even on the surface?

“ There is no plan for these groups to morph into permanent unofficial armies after the job is done. That is not how the U.S operates. it does create rebels and terrorists, but doesn’t maintain them as a PERMANENT AND LEGITIMATE unofficial army.”

But that’s nonetheless EXACTLY WHAT ALWAYS HAPPENS ON THE GROUND ! How can you still believe in such unicorns in 2020 is what astonishes me here. Have you learned ANYTHING of history at all ?

The truth is, that what becomes of the “Frankensteinian” monster they create is never up to them once its use has been depleted, and you know it full well. Or, by some improbable chain of events, you again must have missed what actually happened when they thought of such a nice humble project while funding, organizing, creating and enabling such proxy Islamist militias in Afghanistan hand in hand with the KSA and Pakistani ISI. They must have expected them to perform their intended roles, and then just gently disarm and becomes good citizen of the new Afghan world. When you create such a wicked army, bound to a movement and specific extremist ideology like Sunni (or Shiite) Islam or whatever else of the same nihilistic league, it doesn’t magically disappear just because you want it. It spawns tentacles and integrates itself within the local national fabric, start existing by itself outside of anybody’s control. History has shown it time and again. The same way the groups I mentioned ended up destroying the little secular anti-Assad groups that once existed including those supported by Europe and the US for some time in Syria. They either coerced them into submitting to them, absorbed, exiled or killed them, plain and simple. Bis repetita, history repeats itself with NO ONE in charge thinking of breaking the cycle. You think you play them but they play you.

“Please, get the distinction of “permanence and legitimacy”. Another thing to note is, both Saudi Arabia and America deny responsibility of training or arming ISIS, even though both are guilty.”

Iran denies all the way that it has any affiliation with the Houthis, or that it does anything more than “advising” the SAA. They all play the same cynical game.

“1. Is the Saudi government a TRULY Sunni Shariah government?” Is Iran truly a Shiite Shariah government? Again, I have been there, and I’ve seen under-the-table arrangements at EVERY CORNER of society between local Mullahs to allow, alcohol in nice garden parties, underground night-clubs and concerts. Sometimes they close a hundred of them and proclaim it loud on every headlines and official TV channels how good they are at purifying society from its western sins, just to quietly reopen them the following weeks with a bit of Persian rials or tomans generously offered by the owners to “forget about the past”. Such things happen all the time, there are jokes about that in Persian culture, you have to see it to believe it man. THe regime allow talk-shows that enjoy a LOT of success among the youth, with young women and men sitting next to one another in the public. The regime officially endorses concert halls with cutting-edge acoustics and even western-designed outdoors. They allow regular art expos including some daring pieces every once in a while. So, do you honestly believe that the Iranian Mullahs are any more loyal to their backwards ideology than their petro monarch counterparts in the GCC? That this is any less for show and pseudo-legitimacy, honestly?

“2. Between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which country exports the deadliest religious-oriented policies?”

Both do, to the extent of their respective power. That is all I am saying. Iran does it wherever it can with maximum force, the House of Saud does the very same. They try to inject their wickedness in every host country weak enough to let it happen in a given context.

“ALSO NOTE – ALL THESE IRANIAN PROXY ARMIES HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON: THEY ARE ALL SHIITES OR DOMINATED BY SHIITES EVEN IF SHIITES ARE A MINORITY IN THE HOST NATION.”

Well in this case we haven’t heard of Bahrein and direct intervention of the Saudi army with US backing to quell an uprising there of the Shiite majority ruled by a US-supported Sunni minority.

“The U.S and its allies push policies that risks the lives of thousands, but does that issue a moral pass for Iran to do the same? Especially when the lives of millions of Syrians, Iraqis, or Lebanese is on the line.”

No, and again that’s precisely my point: nobody’s crimes give the other any valid excuse to do the same. That is why, contrary to you, I make no distinction between the two “camps” of the same kind of evil. Certainly not by wishing for a whole region on fire to make one of those islamofascist entities win over the other and destroy the local peoples’ chances at a better future for hundreds of millions of people for generations to come.

Your observation cross mine in many respect, yet our conclusion are diametrically opposed because you pick a side in a world of evils, while I refuse all of them altogether based in empirical data of what they’ve done to the world wherever they reign supreme.

I have read your entire comment. I agree with a few points, but most are controversial. Here are what I think are the points you make: (1) The Saudi government despite not obeying Shariah forces its own brand of Shariah on the people and even seeks to export it. (This I agree). However, you must realize that Iran too does implement some form of Shariah on its citizens. Don’t forget, we are comparing the two evils. (Shariah in its pure form is not evil. I am a Muslim, and every true Muslim holds Shariah supreme to any laws. We need not argue about this if you disagree). I am only going to compare the human catastrophe that results from the foreign policies of Iran and Saudi Arabia. (2) You disagree that Hezbollah, PMU, etc., are more dangerous than ISIS, Al-qaeda, Al-Nusra, etc. I want to point out that all these groups are non-state actors, i.e, they are not under governmental control of the host nations they exist or operate in. They all have foreign backers. One category is considered terrorists by the whole world and have no legitimacy whatsoever in any country. This category operates underground and no one openly supports it – only covert support. This means they have less flexibility to recruit, organize, and strengthen their ranks. The other group enjoys legitimacy both domestic and foreign, but they too refuse to come under government control (for reasons you haven’t told me since we started this conversation). They move in the open and mingle with people. They recruit just like the army does, and have sophisticated command and control structure. Worse, they have policies independent of the states in which they operate. Their independent policies and refusal to come under government control makes them a far more dangerous force than the former for their host countries. here’s why: (i) They threaten the ability of the host country to enforce government laws they disagree with. (A good example is what Kadhimi faces in Iraq right now). there is no sovereignty in a country with parallel independent armed forces pursuing different objectives. I feel sorry for Kadhimi. (ii) They pursue foreign campaigns that might invite catastrophic repercussions on the host country. An example is what Hezbollah does in Syria. Israel kills Hezbollah forces in Syria. Hezbollah does not retaliate in Syria but takes the fight home. What if the tit-for-tat between Hezbollah and Israel start in Syria and end in Lebanon? How’d you feel being the Lebanese president? (3) You claim Hezbollah deserves legitimacy because it is the only force capable of stopping Israeli invasion of Lebanon, then you go further to claim that Hezbollah’s existence is a necessity insofar as Lebanon’s security is concerned. I dispute these claims for the fact that Iran could have helped the Lebanese army to be strong enough to defend Lebanon. It could train, arm, and donate financial aid to Lebanese official army. You said it spends about $800 million on Hezbollah yearly. Don’t you think the Lebanese government should be the one funding Hezbollah? What’s the catch for Iran? I still maintain Hezbollah is a private Iranian army on Lebanese soil. They are also predominantly Shiite. They also fits Iran’s core agenda of exporting the revolution. (4) You claim that Iran trained and armed those proxy forces as a way to expand the battlefield should America try to invade Iran. That statement is only partially true if you consider the whole picture. Here are my reasons: (i) Iran has been supporting Militias long before the U.S invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. (ii) Countries where Iran’s proxy forces are present do not necessarily share a border with Iran, nor do some have U.S military bases. Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, and the Palestinian territories neither share a border with Iran nor host U.S military bases, (except for Syria just recently). Your statement holds true only for Iraq. (iii) It is wicked of Iran to try to force other countries into its war with the U.S. considering the potential human and material loses for those countries. The worse is, Iran claims to be their friend.

Saudi Arabia does not have proxy forces in Sunni countries like Iran does, even though the Saudis have the resources and influence to put together such forces. Therefore, Saudi Arabia cannot force other countries into its own wars. It only bribes them. It could not even handle Qatar.

The U.S and Saudi Arabia have trained a shadowy jihadi army, but these are globally considered terrorists. hence, they are less dangerous than their Shiite counterparts who afford Iran so much control over sovereign states.

“The Saudi government despite not obeying Shariah forces its own brand of Shariah on the people and even seeks to export it. (This I agree). However, you must realize that Iran too does implement some form of Shariah on its citizens. Don’t forget, we are comparing the two evils. (Shariah in its pure form is not evil. I am a Muslim, and every true Muslim holds Shariah supreme to any laws. We need not argue about this if you disagree). I am only going to compare the human catastrophe that results from the foreign policies of Iran and Saudi Arabia.”

That’s exactly what I do. I’m an atheist so indeed we need not argue on what is being a Muslim, even though NONE of the Muslims I know including in Iran consider the strict application of Shariah law as the “supreme command”, let alone speaking of themselves as “true” Muslims, as one’s relationship with Allah is supposed to be a highly private matter.

And I haven’t seen Iran be responsible for a million death in Iraq or the 120,000 that died directly at the hands of the invading US forces in 2003 alone. Nor do I see Iran bombing an impoverished country like Yemen to bits and triggering a Cholera outbreak. I count in ACTUAL damage, human and material, you give weight to and gravity to political and philosophical symbolism. Those are two different discussions in my opinion, this is comparing apples and oranges.

“(2) You disagree that Hezbollah, PMU, etc., are more dangerous than ISIS, Al-qaeda, Al-Nusra, etc. I want to point out that all these groups are non-state actors, i.e, they are not under governmental control of the host nations they exist or operate in. They all have foreign backers. One category is considered terrorists by the whole world and have no legitimacy whatsoever in any country. This category operates underground and no one openly supports it – only covert support. This means they have less flexibility to recruit, organize, and strengthen their ranks.”

First it took three long years for Russia to finally “convince” the US in labelling HTS a terrorist organization. And before that, the US NEVER accepted to label the previous ones as such, namely Ahrar Al Sham and Harakat Nourideen Al Zinki, both certified allies and affiliates of Al-Nusra openly stating Sharia is their manifesto. And anyway, who cares about their “recognized international status” you insist on so much? What counts is what happens on the ground! They are by far the ones that are enabled to do the most damage everywhere they operate. And they don’t operate underground, they quite openly ruled 80% of Syria until 2015, just like they ruled 100% of Afghanistan a few years before, following the very same scenario. Do you know all this? The US and Europe let them install their alternative governing bodies, judiciary and Sharia courts + police in Syria and did NOTHING to stop the tide. A whole society within the fractured country. And the “Coalition” was rather busy occasionally bombing the SAA “because oh my god they supposedly use chemical weapons” where it makes no sense at all. Go figure their objectives. Show me who they’re obsessively trying to weaken, I’ll tell you who they want to see prevail. Same with a good 30% of Iraq being officially controlled by ISIS at the peak of their power.

At the very contrary, Hezbollah and the PMU are kept by Iran on a pretty tight leash and we have yet to see them try to alter the internal balance of power anywhere. Hezbollah partakes in elections and ends up getting parliamentary majority by 100% LEBANESE VOTERS in internationally observed and validated election process. Same with the PMU, sometimes Iran gets what it wants, sometimes it doesn’t. Shiite representative are nationalists before being pro-Iran and for a few years have been officially integrated within the national Iraqi armed forces, although with a separate command, but the Iraqi GOVERNMENT gets the last say. When is the last time the PMU tried to take over Iraq? Even at the culmination of tension after the Soleimani kill, NOTHING such happened. And if they want to keep their separate structure it is because they consider that the US-friendly part of the government globally illegitimate since it spawned out of occupation and coercion, and they are right. Sadr is one example among many others. Iran doesn’t have that magical sway you’re implying. What of the US presence here in super-base btw? Did they ask the Iraqi to come here and implant so massively? Didn’t they come after a pack of state lies and photos hopped satellite pictures in search of non-existent WMDs? Didn’t they destroy the very fabric of Iraq and led to massive sectarian strike? How about you talk a bit about them? What’s “official and legitimate” about basically every single US service member here?

Yes, Afghan Taliban and Al-Qaeda were considered “terrorist” after the US depleted their use against the Soviet (then they were called “freedom fighter”). And so what? They took control of the whole of Afghanistan and we know the kind of horrid regime they imposed to their citizens, women were turned into subhuman citizens.

“The other group enjoys legitimacy both domestic and foreign, but they too refuse to come under government control (for reasons you haven’t told me since we started this conversation).”

I addressed that twice. In my previous and current post, whether you agree or not.

“They move in the open and mingle with people.”

Pro-GCC groups do exactly the same, Sunni preachers/scholars are plenty in Iraq, and Quranic schools extend in the whole world, from the Middle-East all the way to North Africa.

“They recruit just like the army does, and have sophisticated command and control structure. Worse, they have policies independent of the states in which they operate.”

Because thanks to the US invasion, Iraq is currently divided into sectarian lines, and a Shiite usually does not want to work let alone fight for a Sunni. Plus, as I said above, they have diametrically opposed views of the Sunni Sponsor, the US, that is rightfully considered by MANY Iraqi Sunni and Shiite alike as parasite that are only there because they forced their way into the country in 2003.

“Their independent policies and refusal to come under government control makes them a far more dangerous force than the former for their host countries. here’s why: (i) They threaten the ability of the host country to enforce government laws they disagree with. (A good example is what Kadhimi faces in Iraq right now). there is no sovereignty in a country with parallel independent armed forces pursuing different objectives. I feel sorry for Kadhimi.”

There is no sovereignty in a government whose “official” command and control is comprised of CIA operatives, its air force is 100% America funded and controlled, same with its elite “Security Force”. The US enjoy completely separate military infrastructure where the Iraqi aren’t even allowed like major airbases and barracks + air-defense apparatus, its generals are hand-picked by the Pentagon, and are directly accountable to them while supposedly being at the service of the Iraqi government.

At least, the PMU are IRAQIS. The US enjoy full sovereignty on its dozen military structures there without even allowing any Iraqis there, and does whatever it wants there without accountability to ANY Iraqi political structure. They were officially asked to leave by the Parliament after the Soleimani assassination (deemed illegal even by the UN) and simply responded “they won’t”. This is a declaration of war and a blatant breach of sovereignty yet their strength alone allows them to outweigh local Iraqi decision. This is ludicrous.

At best, the US is as much an illegitimate entity here as Iran is. I see bias on your part as you seem to be willing to see only half the picture since you obviously hate everything Iranian without even knowing Iranian society from the inside, as I pointed out. Iraq needs to get rid of BOTH Washington and Tehran, as none of these consider the country as anything sovereign and settle scores on their soil without actually to war against each other.

“They pursue foreign campaigns that might invite catastrophic repercussions on the host country. An example is what Hezbollah does in Syria. Israel kills Hezbollah forces in Syria. Hezbollah does not retaliate in Syria but takes the fight home. What if the tit-for-tat between Hezbollah and Israel start in Syria and end in Lebanon? How’d you feel being the Lebanese president?”

And who is to blame for that escalation? Israel, still occupying the Lebanese Shebaa Farms, regularly destabilizing the border area and getting stopped by the UNIFIL and LEBANESE ARMY without Hezbollah ever intervening in those cases. You don’t read my posts correctly, I addressed those already. Israel was killing Hezbollah while it had been operating against Al-Qaeda linked forces and ISIS, NOT Israel, yet the latter picked a fight with it. Hezbollah doesn’t have the capability to retaliate against Israel from Syria and so does from Lebanon, their homeland where they enjoy parliamentary legitimacy as well. If anything, you should ask Israel why it constantly hampered every single anti-ISIS and anti-AQ campaign undertaken by Hezbollah. And again, even Hariri timidly thanked Hezbollah for clearing dangerously threatening Al-Nusra forces at the border around 2013, same with the population. Their popularity jumped after their operations, there’s no way you can deny that.

“You claim Hezbollah deserves legitimacy because it is the only force capable of stopping Israeli invasion of Lebanon, then you go further to claim that Hezbollah’s existence is a necessity insofar as Lebanon’s security is concerned. I dispute these claims for the fact that Iran could have helped the Lebanese army to be strong enough to defend Lebanon. It could train, arm, and donate financial aid to Lebanese official army. “

I said that the US and Europe have repeatedly turned down Lebanese requests for arming the national armed forces with real air-defenses and an air-force, right after the 2006 war. Serious plans were set in motion for Beirut to acquire their first ever fighter squadron. Russia and France were ready to gladly provide. Iran was scared as hell. But in the end, following intense Israeli and US pressure, all those plans were ultimately dropped and no alternative was offered. Iran was happy to be left with Shiite Hezbollah supported by half Christians and half Muslims of Lebanon and continued on arming and funding it even further, and with tacit Lebanese blessing. And anyway, I remind you again even though you don’t like it : Hezbollah is a recognized, politically legitimate entity in Lebanese and most Lebanese vote them in office election after elections, you can dislike it, but can’t deny them that right.

“You said it spends about $800 million on Hezbollah yearly. Don’t you think the Lebanese government should be the one funding Hezbollah? What’s the catch for Iran? I still maintain Hezbollah is a private Iranian army on Lebanese soil. They are also predominantly Shiite. They also fits Iran’s core agenda of exporting the revolution.” Again, as I said before, I never said I supported that relationship in principle. I just explained why it was only fair game considered what is being done on the other side. You leave a void, some regional power fills it. The KSA practically funds and controls Hariri’s movement, and the US closely follows in controlling every arm and piece of hardware owned by the Lebanese army that they keep universally weaker than Israel, you think nobody in Lebanon noticed that elephant in the room , seriously ?

Go and ask the Lebanese about that, in their majority they say they regret having to rely on Hezbollah alone for military defense, yet they constantly ask why on earth is their national army not allowed to have air branches like any other nation is entitled to defend its skies ?

“Iran has been supporting Militias long before the U.S invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. Wrong. At best, they started that proxy game pretty much in concert. The US overtly and massively supported Saddam’s Iraq when it did a surprise invasion of Iran at the onset of the Revolution. And the whole of the GCC was instrumental in sheltering and saving his airforce during the massive Iranian counterattack called “Qaman 99” that occurred 24h after the initial Iraqi offensive.

“Countries where Iran’s proxy forces are present do not necessarily share a border with Iran, nor do some have U.S military bases.”

And the US does, right? it came peacefully specially in Iraq and Afghanistan at Iran’s western and eastern borders, correct? Texas is right next door to its 35 bases around Iran, still facts I guess. It economically and militarily coerced the GCC to host their massive USAF bases and USN anchorage through corrupt puppet petro-monarchies despised by their people and wholly dependent on US aid for their defense, just like Iran-funded and equipped Hezbollah, yet you’re unable to acknowledge it while it’s technically the EXACT same thing happening.

“It is wicked of Iran to try to force other countries into its war with the U.S. considering the potential human and material loses for those countries. The worse is, Iran claims to be their friend.”

It is equally wicked of the US to come guns blazing and force itself upon the region and then encircle countries with military bases. Iran forced nobody to “war” with the US. The US started a war with Iraq. As I said, even at the peak of tensions past January the PMU were instructed to stand down by Tehran. In Syria as well, the US chose to be at war with Assad, the latter never wanted a conflagration. Same with Lebanon: if anyone is guilty of looking for a war and constantly trying to stir tension at the border, it’s Israel that you persistently forget to even mention. They do daily overflights over their territory and terrorize its inhabitants, have destroyed their country once in 1982 and badly scarred it again in 2006, they occupied south Lebanon for 17 years and still occupy the Shebaa Farms to this day. I see no mention of any of these in your carefully established lists.

“Saudi Arabia does not have proxy forces in Sunni countries like Iran does, even though the Saudis have the resources and influence to put together such forces. “

Because it doesn’t need to do that. It has the US at its side militarily and diplomatically. Although in Syria the KSA pretty much shares and compete with Turkey for control of AQ-derived Sunni mercenaries hell-bent on establishing Shariah law there in KSA-centric satellite provinces, and most of their members and commanders are Saudi nationals themselves. And anyway, yes, in most cases they are blessed and covered by the US to overtly invade when needed (Bahrein) or invade AND destroy countries they don’t like (Yemen). They don’t need to have proxies, as they are enabled by their US master to act directly with more than a hundred billion worth of their best equipment and arms.

“Therefore, Saudi Arabia cannot force other countries into its own wars. It only bribes them. It could not even handle Qatar.”

Because they’re quite inept at diplomatic arts and only work, as you say, by throwing big oil money to gain support, contrary to Iran that does prolonged, multi-dimensional, long-term planning to integrate host societies. Another kind of evil, as I said. Yet more efficient in that regard than the GCC approach. Still, two competing evils that BOTH need to be cleansed away from the region.

It is evident that you partially misunderstand my position. I am not trying to defend America’s actions in the Middle East. If you read some of my past comments, probably on a different post, I mentioned that America is responsible for the deaths of Millions in the Middle East – A crime I believe they have to pay for some day. Everything you said about America is true, and they have done even worse than you say. A similar verdict goes for the Al-Saud monarchy. Where you and I disagree is whether or not Iran is also guilty of precipitating serious human suffering in the Middle East. Please, stop talking about America because I do not support America, and I agree with you 100% concerning America. I don’t want to be hearing CIA did this and that, or America did this and that to Iran, Iraq, or whichever country. I think I should tell you more about America’s evils than you can tell me. The focus of this conversation should be THE EFFECTS OF IRAN’S AND SAUDI’S FOREIGN POLICY on governments and civilians in the region. I had been arguing that Iran’s foreign policy carries far more devastating consequences for the region than Saudi Arabia’s, especially in the long run. Iran’s strategy is not for IMMEDIATE results. it is a LONG-TERM comprehensive plan that should the fire explode, it’ll engulf the entire or much of the Middle East. ISIS and other groups you mentioned only temporarily affected Syria and Iraq. But Iran’s proxies, when unleashed, will put the whole region on flames. (Get this idea) You did attempt to answer some of my questions, but you skipped the really critical ones all together. I asked a question concerning your claim that Iran expanded the battlefield by creating proxies because of America’s efforts to militarily encircle Iran. I argue that such is not the reason why Iran created and maintains these proxies because, (1) Hezbollah and Houthis are far from Iran’s borders, and the U.S has no military bases threatening Iran from these countries. (2) Iran has been building proxies long before the U.S invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. (If you dispute this fact, we can debate it). Because you made no reference to this very critical question, I’ll conclude that you acknowledge the fact that Iran has a different reason for these proxy forces – though it partly serves to deter America. And I’ll tell you what that reason is. However, you still have a chance to prove me wrong before I proceed to tell you Iran’s overall game-plan, which most on SouthFront don’t know yet. Middle East politics is highly complex. You can’t understand it without know some history about the region. Every move Iran makes is highly calculated. Iran is a master at hiding secrets in PLAIN SIGHT. That is why most people see Iran as being innocent and undeserving of the current pressure from its adversaries. I don’t support Iran’s adversaries, but I know Iran is guilty too. The Iranian proxies may appear to be less dangerous than ISIS. That is only true if you consider the short-term security risks countries face from ISIS. But looking at the long-term security risks, Hezbollah is certainly a far more dangerous threat to Lebanon’s national security than ISIS or Al-Nusra ever were to Syria’s national security. Why? I’ll explain with an example: Suppose Hezbollah gets into a fight with Israel over some skirmish that started in Syria. Suppose this fight escalates to a point where Israel uses nukes on Hezbollah in Lebanon (I am considering all the possibilities here). Israel made it clear that it’ll punish the whole of Lebanon should a war start with Hezbollah. And frankly, the Israelis, for all their evil actions against the Palestinians, have a legitimate reason to punish the WHOLE of Lebanon. Because as you state: Hezbollah, unlike ISIS, does enjoy great domestic support. My Friend, I want to ask you three questions, and I plead with you to be honest in your answer. These questions should illustrate one of the critical points I have been trying to make: (1) Should Israel manage to kill 50 Hezbollah fighters in Syria, can the Lebanese government stop Hezbollah retaliating should Hezbollah decide to do so? (2) In a war between the U.S and Iran, Should Iran request that Hezbollah attack Israel, will Hezbollah obey the Lebanese government if it authorized Hezbollah to stop? (3) Between the Iranian and Lebanese government, which one do you think can compel the other into its war, say with America? Do the same comparison between Iranian, Syrian, and Iraqi governments.

I will respectfully make it shorter since this discussion is dragging on and on and I do not foresee us agreeing in any wat whatsoever on the core endgame considering your latest post.

Unlike Iranian machinations, we have technically witnessed the effects of GUlf proxy destabilization projects unravel. And they have proven on the ground multiple times that the harm and destruction they led too is not little, medium or severe : it is UNIVERSAL. Why ? because it takes over the ENTIRE host country with the worst reactionary fringes of its society that then push it backwards in time and destroy both its past, present AND of course, future.

In that regard , there are two recent examples:

-Afghanistan : was one of the most promising secular nations of the Orient during the 70s, had a surplus of female doctors it shared with its neighbors a bit like Cuba does today. Plus it had embarked in grandiose infrastructure projects. Yet it ended in one of the worst places to live under nihilistic Taliban rule empowered by rigorist Sunni Islam ideology expressly put in place via Saudi funding and American arms that crumbled its base through the sheer force of its extremely powerful military structure established from outside completely artificially by malign hostile powers. Nothing “shadowy” about them, they were even labelled “Freedom FIghter”, JUST LIKE their Syria counterparts nowadays.

Again, in its worst day, how could Iran or any other nation on Earth do worse than that ? wherte has it done so ? in the Saudi case, the country is NO MORE, it has become a shadow of its former self and is practically stuck in time with no end in sight to its suffering. It took less than a year after the Soviet left for the Saudi-backed extremists to literally reduce its society to rubble.

Other example, much more recent : Syria. At one point in the war, 85% of its territory was overrun by a large umbrella of Salafist paramilitaries directly enabled by the same “coalition of evils” called the Saudis and the US. The result was that the few strongholds of the country still in secular hands were encircled and dangerously close to defeat themselves. Damascus was surrounded, and it was only a matter of time before they fell. Aleppo was already half-eaten, too.

Finally : Yemen. Do we need to even go again on that topic ? The country as it was as, once again, like the two other, wiped away from the surface of the Earth. The infrastructure is gone, society is gone AGAIN, fractured by multiple competing Gulf project that have no regard for its people or integrity as an integral country. Again, no worse fate could be imaginable.

You ask a lot of questions, but how about you answer some :

-What would have happened had the Russians AND Iranian, NOT entered the fray and simply watched has Syria drowned in agony ? what kind of Society would have it left for the ordinary Syrians ? what kind of ideology and legal rules did the world witness wherever the likes of Al-Nusra settled in a province ?

Let me answer you : The most basic, ignorant, primitive and hence deadly and backwards application of Sharia, just like their Afghan equivalent. No distinction. Progress stopped, schools , libraries and cafés closed , moral polices started killing people for blasphemy, sex enslavement for minor girls and women was rampant, forced marriages too, modernity was banned, the Internet was cut , same for non-Shariah compliant TV and Radio. We were sent back in time 1500 years at least, just like Afghanistan has become.

2nd question : what would have happened to Afghanistan had the Saudis/US/Pakistanis not created and enabled a full-blown Mujaheddin army against in that ate its population alive from within ?

Now what of Iran, by contrast. Let us see their situation : first it had 35 years to make Hezbollah topple the parliamentary balance of power, everybody knows the extremely weak Lebanese military would fall in 48 hours should they choose to do so. They absolutely have the capabilities and strength to do so and establish new facts on the ground overnight, specially after the Israeli debacle of 2006 and the historic level of popularity they enjoyed across the sectarian and political spectrum as a result.

Yet it has so far always respected the diverse and structurally democratic composition of its own country, even accepted to loose election a few years back. They never once tried to destabilize or forcefully take over.

Same with the PMU and Shiite parliamentary majority in Iraq. After repelling ISIS at the front lines and even helping the Iraqi Kurds when everybody else was absent, Soleimani was God in the eyes of most young Iraqis, that is fact. Iran was considered the savior of the day when nobody else came to help. On top of it, they had 15 years of deep political presence within Iraqi society to forcefully overcome the Sunni part of the political spectrum after Obama completely left the country with zero boots on the ground remaining. Yet, here again, Iran refrained from changing the balance of power.

Yes, like every country with interest, it pushed its own ideology and religion, it favored its “agents” and favorable parties over the rest of Iraqi society, this is dirty, but this is what everybody does here.

Your take on Iran is based on a dire assessment of “intent” instead of comparative approaches and historical study. You “presume” its reinforced rule over the region will be somehow, for unspecified reasons “worse than a region on fire”. First I have a problem with its very logic : NOTHING is worse than a region on fire, as this fire would kill dozens of million in Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran itself, even Afghanistan and possibly Pakistan, should that kind of total mayhem happen.

You say you gladly admit the US and the Gulf together have done harm to millions and would even extend more facts to support it than mine, yet what you advise is EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT : which is forceful take-down of countries and societies they do not like, dismember its national fabric, and make it a shadow of itself through kinetic offensives that physically rip apart whatever it currently is. And this is exactly where you make no sense.

Besides, two times in a row, you forgive or forget Israel in your rationale concerning Lebanon. Not ONCE in its history did Hezbollah draw first blood from Lebanon against the IDF. It was always by nature set up as a defensive mouvement that first expelled the Israelis from Lebanon’s southern lands, and then made sure it remained strong as a deterrent for future attacks and invasion attempts, precisely what it did in 2006.

When you ask “what is Israel kills 50 Hezbollah fighters”, I would stop you right there : why on Earth would Israel be allowed or legitimate to attack Hezbollah in theater that are of no concerns to it and furthermore are supposed to take down anti-semitic Salafist far worse than Hezbollah if ever in a position to harm Jews too ?

And you keep on separating Hezbollah from the rest of Lebanese society, and I will say again, it is NOT, whether you hate or like it. It enjoy regular majority in the political structures, gets voted into office, and thanked for its action beyond their borders as I said before with Al-Nusra at the gates for some time. Same for defending the borders from Israeli incursion where the National Army is impotent.

Finally, one question you NEVER addressed either : you say the current level and consequences of GCC machination is of no compare to what Iran “has planned” or “would do”. Yes, let’s even assume you’re right for the sake of argument. What would becomes of their ambitions once totally unleashed in the utter absence of ANYONE standing in competition in front of them with free sway over hundreds of million Arab AND Iranians ? have you ever pushed you war-gaming theories that far ? A fully liberated and unquestionably dominant GCC would mean Hell on Earth if we simply imagine their current approaches on other countries they either destroyed or almost wrecked already with far less power and space to act. Nothing secular would remain, and no compromise would be made with ANY society whenever it comes into contact with the Salafist Houses willing to enact their ideology and establish their kind of society abroad. That would mean the end of progress of generations upon generation in a dozen countries at least.

I do no wish Iran controlling more countries than it does not, or drill further into existing proxies, yes. But there is no way in hell I’ll wish for two far worse evils that you are hoping for :

1 – global war that would engulf the whole region in flames with unimaginable consequences and ramifications for the people involved. By principle, beyond any specific topic or debate, I oppose full-blown conflicts as the little rule of law or checks and balances in individual countries stop mattering anymore and sets the stage for enormous abuses at both national and individual levels.

2 – a fully hegemonic GCC ruling the region and namely holding sway over who gets what basically in every corner, makin a mockery of secularism and pushing their nihilistic views of the words everywhere they please, even further and harder than what they currently achieve.

I call bullshit. And I’ll give you an example. Iran has masterfully put together militias, as you say. But they are not just Shia! They are a coalition of both Sunni and Christian militias as well…your ignorance is powerful and dangerous. ..to yourself.

You are the one who is ignorant. What is the proportion of Shiites to (Sunnis and Christians) in Hezbollah, PMU, Liwa Fatemiyoun, and Houthis? Iran’s support for Sunni groups fighting the U.S. is quite limited to non-existent. If they ever did, it is insincere and very limited compared to what they do for Shiite groups. Take Taliban as an example. Most or All top figures of these groups I mentioned above are Shiites.

Many…but it’s 4U2 find out.

Spoken like a true pretender. Parroting the narrative programmed by your master’s. I must ask yet again, if what your blah, blah, blah is true, then what is the reason for your reluctance to attack Iran, and make your crack pipe smokin’ dreams come true ? Poor attempt to project your cowardice, and fears on to Iran. Fail.

You meant to reply to “The Objective”, right ?

Oh, my bad. Yes, I did mean to reply to that troll. Forgive me.

No problem :)

Why is it that Iran’s allies are never considered in these Iran is this, Iran is that, cannot defeat US military strategically, barely tactically, and blah, blah, blah ? Don’t any of you think that in ignoring Iran’s allies, that now includes Iraq, particularly Iran’s world power ally, somehow not render this entire narrative absolutely useless ? Russia, and Iran have been allies for over a thousand years, and that isn’t going away anytime soon. Yet somehow these facts escape your notice. I have to wonder if any of you know the name Yakov Kedmi, the position he recently retired from, or his analogy of war between The West, and Iran. Iran is Persia, not Arabia. I would urge y’all to revisit how you’re thinking on the subject. Iran is the strong regional power, in the Middle East. Iran stated clearly it was not done with US Government on the issue of the assassination of it’s top General, and two Iraqi Generals.

“Russia, and Iran have been allies for over a thousand years, and that isn’t going away anytime soon. Yet somehow these facts escape your notice.’

Please explain this. Tsarist Russia invaded and occupied Iran. The Soviets and British invaded Iran again in 1941. Under the Shah Iran was firmly anti soviet. Revolutionary iran under Imam Khomeini saw the USSR as an ideological enemy.

It’s only in the last 20 years that Russia and iran have been on friendly terms and there is still a lot of mistrust between them. The relationship is more “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of relationship instead of a true friendship. You’ll notice Russia refuses to sell Iran weapons even today because they respect UN sanctions on iran.

“Iran is Persia, not Arabia.”

I was well aware of that fact.

“Iran stated clearly it was not done with US Government on the issue of the assassination of it’s top General, and two Iraqi Generals.”

…. but not to the point where they are so out for blood that they walk into a trap either. They are being smart about it and biding their time. No sense in cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You are missing out on another strategic victory. The bloody nose given will shatter US perception of dominance so fast, it will have an effect on the dollar. Now, the dollar is no longer reliably backed by its guns or the oil and resources in far neo colonies. The resulting war expenses from the stand off you mention will be huge for America but with moderate effect to the enemy. If the US decides to land troops in Iran. China suddenly becomes the indisputable hegemon of the world. Also, all these pipeline projects suddenly becomes a big win since it bypasses the chokepoint of Iran. US storage wouldnt be able to support a war for more than a year maybe.

“The bloody nose given will shatter US perception of dominance so fast, it will have an effect on the dollar.”

That’s a bit of a long shot. The recent massive FED bailouts and weirdly buoyant equity markets shows there is still a lot of ink left in the magic printing press. The Anglo – American empire control vast wealth and power.

That being said the collapse has begun but as the effects of the pandemic has shown it will take more than a bloody nose to bring down this empire.

Military defeats will happen to the empire …. it’s inevitable ….. however today the USA can still bring hell to iran but Iran can do fuck all to the US mainland. What’s the sense in making your people suffer over getting revenge for men who are already dead?

This winter is going to very tough on the USA. If I were Iranian I’d wait until spring and see what damage the pandemic does to the US economy and what the next president does. If they get a chance to give the USA a bloody nose without risking massive US retaliation …. like when they shot down that drone …. then they should go for it. But no sense in going out of your way to make trouble.

Iran’s objective is to defeat it’s opponents lawfully and have thus far either succeeded or attempting to do so. In the court of the world’s eyes, they have played masterfully. Yet they know this is not a true victory, only a moral one. Iran will ride out, as long as possible, the negative resurgence gaining momentum within their enemies domestic audience as well as internationally. Time is on their side and against her opponent, this has been well proven since 1979.

“It’s allies will deal with anything nuke incoming” LOL Let’s hope it never gets to this.

Jew sheman much?

Jew Bla Bla….Jew Bla Bla…

Well, you should view it as a positive affect of zionism and corrupt Arab regimes. Actually it’s genius. Because you and the likes of you are too stùpid and lazy. How many wars have sunni countries lost to israel? Hezbollah has yet to lose one…do us a favor and cry in your mothers lap. Inta hmar wa kalb. Ya sharmoot.

Don’t worry, the real war you are so proud of winning is coming. Trump’s strategy is to defang Iran’s proxies in the Middle East, and he started by taking out the man who put together these proxy forces. That is a powerful message from him regarding his willingness to risk war in taking out these proxy forces. Among the first things to happen if Trump wins is a war that destroys the PMU in Iraq. Mark my words, sucker.

A war is well planned…until war breaks out.

How hum…Yiddish much?

Is that so? how about the Sunnis in Iran? do they have any representative in your parliament? How many mosques do Sunnis have in Tehran?

I am not trying to defend the corrupt monarchies who are largely to blame for the current Shiite threat as they didn’t deal with it early enough. Saudi Arabia is not the only Sunni country. In fact, they make up less than 5% of the Sunni Muslim world and they don’t represent Sunnis in any way. For a logical proof, look at the Turks, Qataris, Taliban, and GNA as an example. An overwhelming Majority of Sunnis Muslims are anti-Saud.

Shiites have presence in all of these Sunni Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia. Shiites and Christians are in Turkey, Libya, Egypt, etc. and these are all Sunni countries. So what religious freedom are you talking about? Whenever I mention Shiism, don’t compare to Wahabism or Salafism or the MB. These are not representatives of the Sunni Muslim world, which is much much bigger than any of these groups. MB, Salafis, Wahabis, Sufis, and others all share one thing in common: they hold the Sahabas at a high standard. The only Sect that takes a 180-degree turn from all these Sunnis-affiliated groups are the Shiites.

Your question ‘how many sunni mosques are in Teheran’ is a bit tricky because from what I know the sunnis are in the south of Iran, not in Teheran region. I’m not Iranian but if you have info that Sunnis have no mosques anywhere in Iran, please let me know.

Your Taliban example doesn’t play well in your pro-sunni argument. It’s the opposite of Turkey. Actually I never seen shia militants beheading civilians or pows, but talibans, isis and other anti-Assad militants did this and bragged with it.

Iranians in the south are mainly Arab decendants and northern Iranians view them as inferior. This guy, Objective, is obviously bias…he is sunni. I grew up in a sunni family as well as Christian. Their hate is inbeded as deep as white racist KKK members hate for anyone not white.Simply because the shi’a have a differing view, the fact that Mohammad appointed Ali and not Abu Bakr, they view them as lower than zionists…a real shame

Hmm interesting

“just where exactly has “the regime” exported it’s poison to ?” They didn’t succeed despite trying hard to do so in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Bahrain. And InshaAllah, they won’t succeed. Allah never supports a false cause. But to know their intention, here are some sources to stimulate more research on the topic, if you are really being honest. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-revolution-cleric/iran-cleric-says-time-to-export-the-revolution-idUSTRE5833FV20090904 https://www.mei.edu/publications/khameneis-aide-calls-exporting-irans-revolution-abroad

In a life long ago in Houston, Texas, the gulf Arab whores would spend the money of their people to fùck children and boys. They would spend it by the hundreds of thousands. Every Arab knows this yet they are embarrassed and scared to talk. God and religion is a personal thing, I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself here in front of people that are educated as to what the truth is. To sum it all up…just stfu.

No educated person can extricate religion from what is happening today, especially in places like the middle east. Ignoring religion in the geopolitics of this volatile but important region means you won’t understand much of what is going on. Religion might not mean anything to you, but it means everything to someone you’re dealing with. So how can you, the educated man, not consider religion when trying to understand those who value it? In my comments, I try to accommodate everything that affects the regional and global balance. And religion is certainly a major factor. So, you are the one acting uneducated here, and should stfu if you lack any meaningful thing to say.

If you believe the policy makers have religious intent…wanna buy a bridge? Dmbfk!

Religion, really? Intelligent people aren’t going to buy into your hype.

Sell crazy elsewhere, Mohammedan, it’s chalk full here.

You choose not to identify with religion and another person does. The least you can do is show some respect. Did you know that you look stupid? Stop acting smart

Lol…mmmk…hey! I have an idea…gfy!

I think we need to drop this Shia-Sunni divide, the Zionists are exploiting it quite well.

I wish what you said were possible. But the Mullahs in Iran are a product of a revolutionary Shiite aqeeda that’s existed for hundreds of years. Sunnis are truly alarmed at the rise of Iran. We can manage Zionism better than we can manage Shiism. For us, Zionism is just a recent challenge that mainly revolves around owning Jerusalem and the Palestinian lands. Shiism has a much bigger goal and they are better at manipulation, more prone to resorting to violence and domestic infighting. If you know any learned Sunni who knows the History of Shiites, you can ask them personally. If you wish, I’ll provide a link to a 1000+ page book that details much of what they did and are capable of doing. And the book draws on authentic Islamic literature by both Shiite and Sunni scholars.