Media: All German Fighter Jets Deployed in Turkey Are Defective

the F-22 is a 5th gen, it meets the standards. The F-35 is not, as it lacks “supermaneuverability”, and by a big margin.

No, full sensor fusion was one of the criteria applied, and the F-22 does not have that.

No. sensor fusion is listed as one of the criteria by LM, and F-22 doesn’t have that.

ok, but keep in mind that it’s not up to LM to dictate what is 5th gen and what is not. Actually, I’d find strange that the later iteration (blocks) of the F-22 don’t have sensor fusion, but it’s a kind of subject where most data is just speculation. For those who can’t get into state secrets, the 5th gen specs are: supercruising, supermaneuverability and stealth. Don’t forget that you can obtain sensor fusion on 4th gen airplanes just by upgrading their avionics, and that F-35 most definitely has this feature.

Well, maybe LM shouldn’t be allowed to dictate the meaning of the term, but everyone seems to have acquiesced to them doing so. After all, they and the US military basically picked the three characteristics you named. Defining the latest non-stealth Sukhois as 4++ because they lack stealth is essentially submitting to LM’s definition. If we are going to reject their definition, then why aren’t these also 5th, given that they seem to have better networking, ECM and manoeuvrability than the F-22? Similarly, Eurofighters have better helmet displays and more sensor fusion than F-22s, and also a rather nice IR tracking system they latter lack. Basically, each country has somewhat different priorities in their fighter design. But again, calling the Eurofighter 4th Gen or something essentially accepts LM/USA’s priorities as defining what 5th means. 5th Gen is an arbitrary label.

The thing that is really amusing to me though (and my main point), is that LM can’t actually meet it’s own criteria. By LM’s definition, they have produced no 5th gen aircraft, despite their claim that both F-22 and F-35 are such. To make it more ludicrous, LM has added “a new level of reliability, maintainability and deployability” to the list of 5th Gen characteristics! That’s pretty funny stuff.

My other point is that F-22s get put in this special category by everyone because they are called ‘5th Gen,” which causes everyone to assume they must be amazing platforms, superior to everything else. However, contrary to the USAF and LM’s hype, and some very staged wargames of the type the US military usually conducts when it wants to show off it’s shiny new toy, there isn’t much to support that. The stealth they rely on is kind of a joke. It’s a nice extra feature, but nothing decisive. And once you take that trait away, they really aren’t anything too special, as against the latest fighters coming from Russia and Europe. Luftwaffe experience against them at Red Flag Alaska indicated as much. They have their strengths, but also their shortcomings, vs. other contemporary platforms. I’m no fighter pilot, but based on what I know of the matter, I’d rather be in a Sukhoi 35 than an F-22.

I agree, actually the concept of “generation” is way overrated. But as you say, it’s those who invented it that do that; and basically the reasons are imho commercial and propaganda. The US though, is absolutely launched into selling the F-35, while any kind of request from other countries to buy the F-22 have been fully rebuked, – there’s no way they selling it. AFAIK, Japan had requested the type, along with Australia, countries which, especially the latter, are among the “closest” tier to the US (All the anglosaxon countries are considered by the US closer allies than even NATO countries, as they have one level of intelligence sharing with them that NATO countries do not enjoy). That said, it could also well be because the US does not want somebody to release info that would damage the F-22 “reputation”. I’m pretty sure that the whole concept of stealth has been invented primarily to justify trillions and trillions in defence spending to the US taxpayers, creating the illusion that they are the most well protected people of the world with the coolest military. In the end though, the US never had to face enemies who could actually fight them at every operational level, with similar technology, doctrine and training. So the illusion keeps being fed to the public. In Syria, there could be risks for the US much higher than those commonly known: if a F-22 ever gets shot down by a conventional although modern system like the S-300MV or the S-400, or the SU-35, it could run shockwaves into the US public and press, making people start asking questions about the real effectiveness of stealth and the related costs. And about “sensor fusion”, again, I believe it’s a concept that US defence industry are trying to push for the same reasons as above. In the end, whatever they say, it means that the data coming from all the onboard sensors is presented to the pilot over a single interface (say, a LCD screen). It’s nothing new in military systems, for example inside combat ships and submarines command rooms there are displays which are similarly designed, in order to give commanders a most complete as possible picture of the battlefield. That’s why I also believe that supercruising and maneuvarability are always more important in a modern fighter.

Yes, Japan wanted them. I think they were kind of irritated by our refusal, since they make most of our more advanced military electronics. Yeah, you guys only make the completely critical systems that in large part define the capabilities of our most expensive platforms, like AEGIS, but no, we don’t trust you with this super special aircraft despite most of our systems depending on your trustworthiness. I think Australia and the UK also asked to buy them. On that note, I don’t think there is any question that they are vastly superior to F-35s. I’m guessing that our unwillingness to export F-22s comes from various angles of the reputation thing. I think Congress bought all the Air force’s hype about the aircraft initially, and passed the law on the notion that the new wonder fighter would guarantee air supremacy. I think the Air Force is (sort of) happy with the status quo because it makes the fighter seem more magical. (I say sort of, because if they exported, they might also get to buy some more.) I mean, if we won’t export it, it must have really awesome secret features right? That, and no one will be able to see that it’s avionics are actually behind the latest packages being put in F-15s, 16s an18s, because it actually lacks the internal space for the upgrades!

Ah, I think I found the source of our cross-purpose in discussing ‘sensor fusion.’ And, lo and behold, it comes from LM marketing. Your definition of the term is a totally valid, logical and widely accepted one. LM, however, in their marketing material on the F-35, often expand the term to include the networked sensor-sharing and targeting capabilities the F-35 is supposed to have (if it ever works!). That way, they can say that other aircraft which have advanced display systems like Eurofighter with it’s HMSS, ‘don’t have the F-35’s Sensor Fusion (TM).’ Making matters more confusing is what you pointed out about the ability to put such systems in older aircraft. F-22s lack the Helmet Mounted Displays which current US F-15s, 16s and 18s have. They actually have less advanced control systems because were were so set on our fantasy of winning in BVR that we didn’t think they’d need line-of-sight displays. Oh, irony.

I see. And the hilarious thing about LM’s definition of sensor fusion is that the concept, again it’s an old one. “Datalinks” – MiG-31s has had the capability in the early 80ies, with the ability to network all the radars in a flight section (more likely, at higher level as well, limited by LOS and distance only), and apparently (only some sources describe this)even to launch a missile from an aircraft and guide it with the radar of another aircraft (imagine how that would fuck up the concept behind RWR and evasive maneuvers, the pilot expects a missile coming from 3 o clock according to his display but in fact its incoming from 12 o clock). I believe “old” Tomcats were also datalinked to some extent among the flight and the carrier group,SU-27P Flankers positively have it, not to speak about older land based intercept systems that cued the intercepting ac to the intended target. On the HMS though, I m not sure that the F-22 (again, later blocks) lacks the ability. If it’s been retrofitted to eagles and falcons, seems strange they did not do that to raptor.

The helmet display required a redesign of some things in the aircraft, and while the AF was going to do it, the project to was killed off under budget cuts. https://theaviationist.com/2013/04/12/raptor-helmet-axed/

Yeah, I wondered about that. I noticed Sukhois could share data, and it made me wonder why it was supposed to be so ‘revolutionary’ in in the F-35, when it had already been done. It’s one of the main things F-35 enthusiasts brag about when you mention the lousy aerodynamics of the plane, but it’s not even special to the aircraft. (I didn’t know about the MiG-31s and F-14s though. It just makes me shake my head even more at the F/A-18, since it seems to be a vast downgrade vs. the F-14 in everything but maintenance and cost.)

It’s a really disturbing state of affairs as regards the US military that you actually have some of these military test pilots all hyped up about their F-35s. They apparently don’t know enough about contemporary combat aircraft to realise that there is nothing about their lumbering plane that is actually new or unique, and it’s got the flight profile of a MiG-21. I watched an interview where they talked to the senior LM pilot, along with a panel of military pilots, two Marines, two Navy, who were doing test flights just before F-35B got it’s IOC clearance, and they were waxing poetic about all the amazing features of the aircraft such as their datalinks, which they went on about. And these, being test pilots, weren’t people fresh from school. They were all O-5s and O-4s. You’d think at that rank they’d know something about the capabilities of other planes. You expect that sort of thing from generals looking to retire and pick up their executive VP sinecures at LM, but from people who might have to fly the thing in combat, it seems more than a little disturbing.