Trump’s Special Representative For Ukraine Caught Posting Fake Photos About Conflict In Donbass

The government in U. was NOT overthrown specifically to “smuggle in” anyone. This was done for dozens of reasons, the paramount one being, to use Ukraine as a battering ram against Russia to harm it in every way imaginable. To beg, steal or borrow in order to harm Russia. All the three of which are being done by U. on a massive scale. But what use is it speaking to you, troll or fool or likely both. You wear a teflon coating against knowing right from wrong.

You are letting your primitive, nonsensical stereotypes get the better of you.

My point stands: it’s a civil war, Ukraine is not “Nazi”, and the Ukrainian army are not “terrorists”. These are just basic, uncontroversial facts when discussing the world with sane people. Of course, that excludes a lot of comment boards, and especially, a lot of commentators on SouthFront.

Of course, like clockwork, you have to insert some ad hominem attack into your post. Really? Don’t you think it proves it is in fact you that is the “troll or fool or likely both”? Are you incapable of debating anything on the merits, or even just addressing the points made, instead of expanding into some illogical strawman you can attack, so your deflated ego can get a small boost? Is that how you get joy, insulting people? If you really one day actually had power, with a sword, instead of your keyboard, how would you use your sword? Invent crimes your invented enemies committed, and smite them for it? That is the mentality you display.

I do not recall arguing on these points: nazi or not, civil war or not…

That’s what my comments to which you responded with your ill-considered attacks were about. Did you read the thread? It’s not that long.

” Ukraine is not “Nazi” (c) I will agree that one can not claim that all Ukraine is nazi but fact is that openly nazi organisation (Right sector, Azov, Svoboda) were used to spearhead coup de tat and are still used to fight Donbass that didn’t exept that coup. One can call it a civil war, but only if one is willing to overlook the big picture – who’s behind this war, who’s funding it and what are the objectives.

Virtually every civil war has outside influence. US civil war certainly did. Bolshevik revolution had many foreign powers helping both sides, in some cases even with armed troops. So did Mao’s Revolution. I’m sure there are civil wars that have happened without foreign interference (including financial, weapons, and political support), but the point is, foreign interference does not make it not a civil war.

Sure there are some Banderites (not Nazis) in Ukraine, so what? There were also Communists fighting for Russia in the Chechen Wars, does that mean Russia was Communist? There are also Russian Communists fighting in Donbass, does that mean Russia is Communist and Russia is invading Ukraine?

Lots of double standards. Partisanship is the enemy of truth.

For your knowledge – Bandera ideology is a nazi ideology . Nazi doesn’t belong exclusevly to Hitler’s Germany. That’s about ethnic cleansing and claiming some race or nationality superior/inferior to other.

I have more knowledge than you can ever have on the topic. Nazi was one very particular party at one particular period in time in one particular country. Like Mensheviks or Bolsheviks in Russia. Bandera ideology is nationalist but not Nazi. Mostly Banderists were for independence, from Poland and Russia mainly, which is quite understandable for people who had been ruled by one empire or another for millenia.

In Nazi ideology, the racial issues were a small (though important) part of their overall ideology. There was much more to it. Indeed the Banderites and Nazis, after cooperating to fight their mutual enemy the Red Army, fought each other in a war, and Bandera was sent to a concentration camp.

I view it as preparation for war against Russia using proxies, in this case Ukraine. Similar to the airlifting of jihadis from Syria to Afghanistan for infiltration into the Caucasus. As you say, the BIG picture.

And now they are nazis and Putins are angels ?

Nazi is as Nazi does. How would you like your city to be attacked by tanks and grad missiles??? Just for wanting federal autonomy???

Nazi is as Nazi does. I would call using tanks, grad missiles and jets to carry out ethnic cleansing in the Donbass as First class Nazi, fully backed by the violent and expansionist US/EU/NATO gangsters.

Blah blah blah yep, sums you up completely. Reread what I wrote. I said attempt to grab Crimea. Foreigners training and funding groupings, be they Nazi or others, to murder people in other regions such as in the DPR/LPR or regions controlled by Kiev is not a civil war. It’s intervention by a foreign government with very specific aims in geopolitics. All of these Nazi groupings on Ukrainian soil holding open torch parades and receiving support from the US with the aim to target the Russian territory of Crimea also is not terrorism in your view. Terrorizing people in your own country with an approving eye from foreigners is not terrorism in your view either. Also, note I said ‘with the aim of funneling terrorists into Russian territory. I thought I’d point out to you that Crimea is Russian territory. I HAVE NOT stated that Ukrainians who have moved to Russia are terrorists. I also have not claimed that Ukrainians who travel to the EU in the hopes of earning enough to survive are terrorists. Who can forget all of the promises and calls to blow up the Crimean bridge, but that wouldn’t be terrorism in your eyes either. I’m sure that in your eyes, only Arabs can act as terrorists.

Blah blah blah yep, sums you up completely.

Actually sums up your irrational, irrelevant diatribe about the point I made, namely, it’s a civil war.

I said attempt to grab Crimea.

You need to re-read what you wrote. You wrote “Civil war my a*s”, then launched into some irrelevant (and frankly asinine) diatribe.

to murder people in other regions such as in the DPR/LPR or regions controlled by Kiev is not a civil war.

Civil war means: a war between factions or regions of the same country. Yes, in war people are trained to kill, and people die. Even in a “civil war”. But it seems you lack understanding of basic terms of language.

It’s intervention by a foreign government

Off hand I can’t think of a single civil war that did not have intervention by a foreign government. Can you name 10?

these Nazi groupings

LOL. Be careful of the Nazi hiding under your bed! He’s gonna get cha’! LOL!

What do you class as a civl war?

Do the people of Donetsk take their fight to Kiev, or do they defend themselves from the savages of Kiev?

‘…A civil war, also known as an intrastate war in polemology, is a war between organized groups within the same state or country. The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region or to change government policies. The term is a calque of the Latin bellum civile which was used to refer to the various civil wars of the Roman Republic in the 1st century BC…’

Do the people of Donetsk take their fight to Kiev, or do they defend themselves from the savages of Kiev?

That has nothing at all to do with whether it’s a civil war or “Nazis” or “terrorists” or whatever other garbage I keep reading about. Now the Donbass fighters did try to gain territory a few times. And Ukrainians tried to gain territory a few times. What does them fighting in Kiev have to do with it? Oh, absolutely nothing.

Obviously you take the Donbass side. But whatever side you are on, it is still a civil war.

Nice definition of civil war, too. Fits 100% the circumstances in Ukraine.

Donetsk fighters tried to gain territory? You mean their own.

Donetsk fighters tried to gain territory? You mean their own.

Donetsk fighters are a tiny minority of Donetsk – you could call them “terrorists” as well (and Ukraine, in fact, does – but I don’t, as I see the whole thing as a civil war). And the war started with some Russians coming over – there was in particular this one Tsarist you may remember who took some credit for that (Strelkov). So arguably this is a foreign-sponsored insurrection to gain more land/people for Russia, no?

But I won’t even make that claim, just look at your definition. “The aim of one side may be to … achieve independence for a region or to change government policies.” Seriously, why are you wasting time making such STUPID comments? For crying out loud, add some value to the discussion.

There was no Government, in Ukraine, following the previous President going to Crimea, in fear of his life. The Presidential candidates were going around, saying they wished to nuke the 8 million Russian speaking citizens of Ukraine. Remember, the massacres, here, there and everywhere. The people of Donetsk and the people of Lugansk did not wish to be Governed by the mob in Kiev, so went to the polls, for their own election, based on ‘self determination’. Porkie got voted in, then was given a copy of the Rand Corporation Report, with the guidelines for implementing genocide, ethnic cleansing of Ukraine. The carpet baggers had turned up, wishing to fleece all they could find. 100,000 dead, 900,000 with life changing disabilities, millions displaced. Strelkov, turned up to lend a hand, then the people of Donetsk and Lugansk, took control. Just like the cookie monsters turning up in Kiev, with their teams of mercenaries. Just like Nato instructors turning up. Not forgetting the CIA, who have their own floor in the SBU building. Why is that?

Remember, the borders of Russia and Ukraine have never been ratified, since the fall of the Soviet Union. Novorussia, now known as Eastern Ukraine, was taken from Russia and gifted to Ukraine, thanks to Lenin. Krushchev, took Crimea, handing it over to Ukraine in 1954. So owing to the borders never being ratified, surely that means, if Ukraine comes out of the CIS, then the borders go back to pre-1917. The borders of Europe and Ukraine, were ratified, so no problem there.

Now what does the Ukraine Constitution say about ‘self determination/will of the people’. What does it say about respecting the people? Then you have article 5 of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, where it states that Russia can protect her people, from attack from nuclear and non-nuclear nations. What Ukraine have done to the Russian speaking population, over in Donetsk and Lugansk, surely covers Russia’s right, to come to the aid of their people? Would you not say?

The Presidential candidates were going around, saying they wished to nuke the 8 million Russian speaking citizens of Ukraine.

One, IIRC Tymoshenko, do you have a link? Obviously not a serious proposal. And even if it was – still a civil war.

if Ukraine comes out of the CIS, then the borders go back to pre-1917.

No, Yeltsin accepted after collapse the borders, including Crimea being part of Ukraine. Nobody important makes this claim, it’s actually not worth a response, except: still, a civil war.

article 5 of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum

Thanks for reminding me, lol, that also confirms Ukraine’s borders, and Russia’s agreement to honor them. Aside from that, it really doesn’t help the Russian cause at all.

to come to the aid of their people? Would you not say?

Absolutely not, indeed it says the opposite, but: still a civil war.

The UNSC agreement, which went with the Memorandum, signed by Sergey Lavrov.

Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the NPT Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons sign by Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America…

(Signed) Anatoli M. ZLENKO Permanent Representative of Ukraine to the United Nations

(Signed) Sergey V. LAVROV Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the United Nations

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclearweapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons,

except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;

(Signed) David HANNAY Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the United Nations

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclearweapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons,

except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;

https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedenobwe_at_s_en/news/memorandum_on_security_assurances_in_connection_with_ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt?printMode=true

( article 3 had already been violated by the US, confirmed by Nuland. Remember coercion?).

Yeltsin never signed over the borders, which is why Ukraine could not join Nato in 1997. Ban ki Moon, confirmed the fact, during an interview with one of the UK TV News sites.

Ukraine Without Borders

according to a statement from UN Secretary General Ban ki-Moon, Ukraine is missing borders.

……

Experts operating under the aegis of the UN Security Council came to the following conclusion about Ukraine’s borders: Within the framework of international law , it turns out that, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine has not been properly registered as a state, according to the UN demarcation of its borders. According to the accepted contractual framework of the Russian Commonwealth, or Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), the country remains on the limits of the administrative boundaries of the USSR, over which the UN has no legal jurisdiction. The EU currently backs this position. The only established borders are on the European side.

…

When the USSR broke up and Ukraine was preparing to declare its independence, Russia set the terms for that independence based on Ukraine’s membership within the CIS Treaty:

….

“…On the whole, Yeltsin has been quite careful to avoid making statements which could evoke negative reaction in Kiev, but it is quite obvious that he has not welcomed Ukraine’s independence. Yeltsin has been quoted as saying that, “Russia reserves the right to review the borders with those republics that declared themselves independent…”

…

At the time, Russia’s treaty rights to review the borders of Ukraine applied to areas that were largely populated by ethnic Russians, including Crimea, Donbass, and northern Kazakhstan. In addition, Russia claimed the right to protect its diaspora population no matter where they were located in the world…

…

The CIS Treaty language reads as follows: “The high contracting parties recognize and respect one another’s territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders within the commonwealth.” This made Russia’s recognition of Ukraine’s borders conditional upon Ukraine’s full membership in the CIS . Promulgated in 1991, it was the best guarantee of independence that Ukraine has received from Russia. …

Following this, the borders were further cemented by the 1997 Friendship Treaty. Fixed borders are a required standard for Ukraine’s recognition by the international community and for any consideration of NATO membership…’ https://www.opednews.com/populum/page.php?f=Ukraine-without-Borders-S-by-George-Eliason-Cultural-Genocide_Genocide_Genocide_Hate-Groups-Neo-Nazis-140415-286.html

……………………

Conclusion – Page 63 – Russian Ukrainian Friendship Treaty 1997

https://ia801305.us.archive.org/23/items/russianukrainian00stewpdf/russianukrainian00stew.pdf

…

In her own words:

Former Ukraine Prime Minister Tymoshenko; “Kill 8 Million Russians with Nukes leaked phone Call / Eh… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StClKfVaBg0

I’m not sure of the details of the CIS Treaty but you quoted the wrong section of the Budapest Memorandum. Section 1 of the memorandum, signed on Dec. 1, 1994, is as follows (emphasis added):

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE [Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe] Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

Why would you quote Section 5??????? For a second I thought you had turned a new leaf and had some integrity :/. I was referring to the Budapest Memorandum, not Section 5. It’s not very long and I though, perhaps wrongly, you had a faint idea what it is about. But you read Section 5 and thought you had a “win” so didn’t bother reading anything else? Do you care about truth, or winning? Because winning based on a lie and deception is not winning at all.

As to the 8 million, yeah, I recalled correctly, that was Tymoshenko. Obviously she was ranting to a friend on the phone (not “running around” saying it, as you incorrectly stated), it was not a serious conversation. Plus she had no power, and still has no power. So what? You think no Russian has ever talked in a private conversation about nuking someone? Probably many many people have. But I guess if you are looking for reasons to hate someone, you can sure find them.

Section 5, of the same agreement, included in both Memorandum, plus, UNSC agreement.

I don’t care about Section 5. Section 1 has Russia accepting Ukraine’s borders. You claimed a few posts above “the borders of Russia and Ukraine have never been ratified, since the fall of the Soviet Union”. That is wrong, Section 1 of the Budapest Memorandum ratified them. Now stop being disingenuous.

The agreement is made up of 5 sections, for a reason. The US violated section 3, plus, section 5 gives Russia the right, to answer back, if the others misbehave and violate the agreement.

OMG you are such a liar or really dumb, who knows, I give up. Seriously, seriously dishonest or stupid.

1994 Budapest Memorandum, please note article 3. You will find the US violated that section, as admitted by Victoria Nuland.

Victoria Nuland’s Admits Washington Has Spent $5 Billion to “Subvert Ukraine”… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY

…………………………

Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons Budapest, 5 December 1994

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State, Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time, Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

Confirm the following:

1) The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

2) The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

3) The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4) The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

5) The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

6) The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature. Signed in four copies having equal validity in the English, Russian and Ukrainian languages.

Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the NPT Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons sign by Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America

………………….

The Budapest Memorandum 1994, is just a Memorandum, nothing more. However, it was backed by the UNSC Resolution S/1994/1399 – Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the NPT, funnily enough, signed by (Signed) Anatoli M. ZLENKO Permanent Representative of Ukraine to the United Nations (Signed) Sergey V. LAVROV Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the United Nations (Signed) David HANNAY Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the United Nations (Signed) Madeleine K. ALBRIGHT Permanent Representative of the United States of America to the United Nations

Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapon Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America,

UNITED NATIONS General Assembly Security Council Distr. GENERAL

A/49/765* S/1994/1399* 19 December 1994 ORIGINAL: ENGLISH GENERAL ASSEMBLY SECURITY COUNCIL Forty-ninth session Forty-ninth year

Agenda items 62 and 70

GENERAL AND COMPLETE DISARMAMENT MAINTENANCE OF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY

Letter dated 7 December 1994 from the Permanent Representatives of the Russian Federation, Ukraine, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America to

the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General… https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedenobwe_at_s_en/news/memorandum_on_security_assurances_in_connection_with_ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt?printMode=true

Exactly, Russia agreed to Ukraine’s border. Very clearly. Could not be more clear.

Europe ratified their borders with Ukraine. Russia, Belarus and Moldova never have, in accordance with international law. Confirmed by Ban Ki Moon, in an interview with an UK television news outlet. They are only recognised, whilst Ukraine is a member of the CIS.

Now, I am bored with groundhog day, just repeating facts, which I have already provided. Unlike you.

You’re a liar. Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s borders. Even when the truth is shoved in your face, you just keep lying and lying.

You can lie all you want, but I don’t like liars, so now you are also blocked. Bye-bye.

Because you say so, whilst providing no facts.

Ban Ki Moon, has confirmed the borders of Russia and Ukraine have never been ratified, in accordance with International Law. He stated it, in an interview with UK Channel 5 News, funded in parts by the UK Government, back in 2014.

If you check the conclusion, of the 1997 Ukraine Russia Friendship Treaty, you will find that and President Boris Yeltsin and President Leonid Kuchma did not ratify the borders of Russia and Ukraine.

…………………….

Full text of “The Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty and the search for regional stability in Eastern Europe”… Conclusion pages 62-63.

CONCLUSION

As late as March 1 997, experts in Russian-Ukrainian relations predicted no resolution to the problems that confronted these two states. In the long term, it was thought that both parties might sign a Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership.

However, in the short term, eight factors seem to explain why Russia was incapable of signing the Friendship Treaty.

•First, without border recognition in a treaty, NATO could not invite Ukraine to join as a member during the Madrid Summit in July 1997.

•Second, Boris Yeltsin’s health prevented him from traveling to Ukraine to sign the treaty, especially before the NATO conference in July 1997.

•Third, if Moscow had really wanted to sign the treaty, it would have separated the Black Sea Fleet and Sevastopol issues from the treaty and continued negotiations in search of a suitable solution.

•Fourth, Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin’s political party, Our Home is Russia, regularly supported the State Duma’s and Federation Council’s claims on Ukrainian territory, principally claiming Sevastopol as a Russian city. This suggested that the issue had moved to the center of Russian policy from the fringes.

•Fifth, the Russian leadership did not denounce or criticize Mayor Luzhkov when he traveled to Sevastopol against Ukraine’s wishes.

•Sixth, Russians did not recognize Ukraine as a distinct ethnic group; from their perspective, Ukraine should follow Belarus’ s example for establishing close ties with Moscow.

•Seventh, the recognition of Ukraine’s borders would have further promoted national unity. This might have allowed Ukraine to distance itself from a close relationship with Russia, which would not have been in Moscow’s best interests.

•Eighth, Russia had not agreed to demarcate any borders with any of the CIS states because Russia argued that “the CIS borders should be divided into ‘transparent internal’ and ‘jointly guarded external’ borders.” 120

All of these factors led the experts to underestimate the impact NATO enlargement would have on Russia’s decision-making.

The Friendship Treaty and Black Sea Fleet negotiations continued for nearly six years almost without interruption. From late 1996, negotiations for a solution became more intense. However, disagreements over the fleet’s basing rights, the division of bays at Sevastopol and mutual financial settlements were great stumbling blocks to a resolution. The Black Sea Fleet problem and the absence of a treaty considerably complicated the state of Russian-Ukrainian relations. The threat of pushing Ukraine into NATO’s orbit, if not its enlarging web of membership, became a direct influence on accelerating the search for solutions.

Ukraine realized that it had to accept a deal as long as it did not appear that the government had surrendered its territorial sovereignty or violated the constitution. Kiev stood strong in its desire for independence and sought assurances from the international community. Ukraine played the “NATO Trump Card.”… https://archive.org/stream/russianukrainian00stew/russianukrainian00stew_djvu.txt

By the way, Russia agreed to this border and to respect it and in return Ukraine gave up a vast arsenal of nuclear weapons. Doesn’t matter if US later violated another Section, Ukraine gave up its nukes and Russia agreed to the border. For crying out loud, your brain is sub-human, sub-chimpanzee, it’s not even possible to discuss rationally with you, you have no rationality. Just one stupid retarded comment after another.

The nuclear weapons which belonged to the Soviet Union, not the personal property of Ukraine. Ukraine was more than happy to take the money on offer. Funnily enough, when Obama was a Senator, he turned up in Ukraine with a suitcase of $US, and Ukraine were more than happy to hand over their domestic weapons, for a suitcase of $US. Is there anything they will not sell, for a price. By the way, it was Russia, no help from any of the other 14 Soviet Union member states, which paid off the $45 billion debt of the old Soviet Union, including from when the Bolsheviks overthrew the Russian Empire.

Yeah, they belonged to the USSR, after collapse a lot belonged to Ukraine. And they agreed to give them up in exchange for Russia agreeing to the borders and agreeing not to interfere. There is nothing to argue here. Russia agreed to the borders. Period. Full-stop.

BS, in your dreams. Ukraine got paid for giving up storage of the Soviet Union nukes, which were not the personal property of Ukraine. Remember, the Soviet Union which fell in 1991, consisted of 15 member states, yet, it was Russia who were stuck with the $45 billion debt. Including from the times the Bolsheviks overthrew the Russian Empire.

By the way, if Ukraine had kept the ICBMs, what would they have used for a carrier? Who had control of the codes? Who provided the carriers, whether planes or submarines?

‘…While Ukraine had physical control of the weapons, it did not have operational control, as they were dependent on Russian-controlled electronic Permissive Action Links and the Russian command and control system.In 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT)…’

“Fits 100% the circumstances..”

Not at all. US propelling it’s proxy forces with weapons training and financing in order to retake the lands (especially Crimea) which they coveted in the first place. If you think people haven’t been terrorized by these proxy forces, well, it says a lot about you.

All war is terrifying. Nobody is saying war is a nice happy affair. But it’s different from terrorism.

Retaking lands is also either civil war or war.

War sucks, and is actually worse than terrorism in countless ways. But it’s not terrorism. By definition. You seem to have this crazy idea that war is good and terrorism is bad and if you just call it war it doesn’t make it bad enough, lol. So much silliness here …

Ask the people terrorized by the Maidan crowd. Oh it’s a war alright, a war against the population of Ukraine for the benefit of the US; even though some other seedy characters INCLUDING Nazi types feel they’ll be left in control. What a paradise.

Ask the people terrorized by the Maidan crowd.

Were you at Maidan? Because I was, lots of times. At least when I was there, it wasn’t terrifying, though it was obvious there were bad elements living there. Most of the terrorizing was of the police, but that was still civil unrest, not terrorism. Unfortunately Yanukovych did not let the police handle the situation properly.

I do love sharing this video.

Now why did the people of Crimea vote to go home to Russia?

Korsun Massacre. Tymoshenko, Presidential campaign, where she openly admitted she wished to nuke the 8 million Russian speakers, living in Ukraine. That is before you got to the investment in the infrasructure of Crimea, let alone the rise in the standard of living. Didn’t the pensioners do well?

EXCLUSIVE: The famous Russian documentary on Crimea with Putin FINALLY with SUBS… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mw4Y9jRwCQ&t=6077s

What did Ukraine do for the people of Crimea from 1954-2014? Besides nought?

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2a76c93bc6a85c0f035317434625f171524075b17ba74f17db82137417eea732.jpg

Thanks for the link… Not sure if I’d seen that one. Will certainly check it out when I have a little more time. Thanks.

I share it a lot. The first 12 minutes, show events leading up. 1 hour and 24 minutes, shows USS Donald Cook, meeting Bastion – well worth watching. The whole video is good, but, long, if you need to break it up, into sections.

Well, we sat and watched the link last night. We’d seen most of this before though it seems they added some segments. In any case, we enjoyed it. We also had watched Ukraine being overthrown live as it happened. It was difficult to turn away from the images brought to us courtesy of the Deep State. I’m sure there are many Ukrainians who went out to protest government corruption those fateful days and who now wished they had stayed home and not assisted the US in destroying their country.

Must admit, I was pig ignorant to it all, before starting to follow the events in Ukraine. What an eye opener. Just could never believe those we vote for, could be so evil, in their lust for greed.

“..could be so evil,..”

True psychopaths lacking in empathy with only their own interests in mind…. they also don’t give a da*n about the country they operate in or use as a battering ram against others.

What are you on about? Who sent the cooke monsters to Kiev, when Russia was enjoying her Winter Olympics? Who chose to take the $5 billion cookies, and turn down the cheap gas and $15 million, interest free loan?

So what if US supported it? End of the day I was in Independence Square when 300,000 people protested the corrupt Yanukovych. They weren’t Americans. This wasn’t a military coup in the strict sense as it has lots and lots of popular support. And there have been elections since. Fact is, I spent years in Ukraine and many many Ukrainians just hate Russia.

Anyway, still looking for a civil war where foreign countries did not support one side or the other. What have you?

Seems like you are butt-hurt that the Ukrainians chose US over Russia. I understand that. I don’t think it was a good idea either. But, it’s not my choice to make. Nobody is stopping Ukraine from reversing course and embracing Russia. I don’t see US troops in the Rada, lol.

“They weren’t Americans”

then we should look into the nationality of the shooters emplaced on the tops of certain buildings (as certified even by BBC) opening fire on both the police and the demonstrators – one of the preferred tactics the scum of the world uses to start riots everywhere.

I do believe they were Georgians, hired by Ukrainians. At least from the Italian news report I saw on it (see also https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201802161061743420-analyst-commentary-on-maidan-sniper-testimony/ ). Do you think Russia is lying about this?

“Do you think Russia is lying about this?”

not at all. you have admitted that riots started because of of external manipulations paid by Ukrainian opposition leaders.

that pretty much invalidates all your histerical ravings on the legitimacy of the so-called maidan “uprising” when instead it was a western backed coup.

oh, if only those 300000 in the square knew that the opposition was firing on them and the police to turn them into western puppets.

Corrupt Yanukovic, was voted in, during a democratic election, which the international community witnessed. He might not have been good, but, he did not slaughter the people of Ukraine. The mercenaries, and the cookie monsters turned up, with the Soros funded regime change script. Including EU witnesses, present when Yanucovic, agreed to stand down. He would revert the constitution back to 2004, bring forward the elections, due in a few months time and all he asked for was a peaceful transition period.

What happened next, Russia was rescuing him and his family from an assassination attempt. 100,000 dead, 900,000 with life changing disabilities, plus, millions displaced. Figures from Oleg Tsarov, the UN, using different data is more conservative. Porkie ran with the Rand Corporation Guidelines, with Soros instructions for the genocide and ethnic cleansing of 1.5 million. The youngsters left behind, well, there is not much of the Ukraine gene pool left, is there?

$5 billion in cookies, accepted from Soros and friends. $15 billion interest free loan, plus, cheap gas declined from Russia. The oligarchs get richer, but, the people of Ukraine, starve and freeze. The EU have fleeced the nation, for whatever they could get, now don’t want anymore to do with the nation. Who do you think will be expected to bail you out? The nation you demonise, that has always looked after you in the past.

Hope you believe it was worth it.

None of what you write changes the fact that it is a “civil war”.

Though I do believe your casualty estimates are heavily exaggerated – where did they come from? Where are the Soros “instructions for genocide and ethnic cleansing of 1.5 million”?

Hope you believe it was worth it.

LOL, never claimed it was worth it, nor even that I supported it; in fact I didn’t. You sure jump to a lot of absurd conclusions based on me simply observing that the conflict is a “civil war” and not “terrorism”. Stay rational! :)

Told you where the figures came from, including the UN, using more conservative figures, using different data. Personally, Oleg Tsarov, uses all sets of data, not just selected, like the UN. 4 years of civil war, not forgetting those rotting in the cauldrons, plus, Donetsk airport, with their families wondering why they never came home, Oleg’s figures sound right. How much of Monsanto grains, will be fertilised by the compostprovided by those who fell in the cauldrons?

Tsarov – pfft.

UN – link please.

Soros – where are his instructions about genocide? I didn’t see them.

Monsanto what? My, you’re seriously demented. Maybe Russians took the dead Chechens to fertilize Russian wheat? Or where do you get this sick idea? You’re disgusting.

Like I said, UN used a different set of figures, leaving many sector out. Find your own figures.

You can find the Soros instructions yourself. Start with the Cyberberkut files.

Monsanto, who took over the ‘Blackwater Mercenaries’, who were advertising for senior management positions, over in Ukraine, back in 2014. No doubt, Ukraine cannon fodder, is the ‘must have’ ingredient in their new products.

Russia was defending her dependent territory. If the Islamic extremists, did not go looking for a battle, Chechnya would not have spent years at war.

……………………………..

RAND Corporation “Action Plan” For Eastern Ukraine Includes Ground Assaults, Air Strikes, Internment Camps And On-The-Spot Execution For Anyone Resisting Relocation… http://thenewsdoctors.com/rand-corporation-action-plan-for-eastern-ukraine-including-ground-assaults-and-air-strikes/

…………………………….

Ukrainian Journalist Openly Calls for Genocide on Hromadske TV, Financed by the US and the Netherlands… Hromadske TV is legitimizing the genocide of the population of Novorossiya. From Inyenzi to Colorados, we have come full circle. Hromadske TV, this mouthpiece of Ukrainian genocide, is financed directly by US and Dutch embassies…

… Transcript: “It’s perfectly simple. You need to kill 1.5 million people in Donbass”

Translated from Ukrainian by Valentina Lisitsa

Bogdan Boutkevitch: Ok, you ask me “How can this be happening?” Well, it happens because Donbass, in general, is not simply a region in a very depressed condition, it has got a whole number of problems, the biggest of which is that it is severely overpopulated with people nobody has any use for. Trust me I know perfectly well what I am saying.

If we take, for example, just the Donetsk oblast, there are approximately 4 million inhabitants, at least 1.5 million of which are superfluous. That’s what I mean: we don’t need to [try to] “understand” Donbass, we need to understand Ukrainian national interests.

Donbass must be exploited as a resource, which it is. I don’t claim to have a quick solution recipe, but the most important thing that must be done – no matter how cruel it may sound – is that there is a certain category of people that must be exterminated.

https://slavyangrad.org/2014/08/01/ukrainian-journalist-openly-calls-for-genocide-on-hromadske-tv-financed-by-us-and-netherlands/

I have found my own figures, vastly less than 100,000.

I conclude your Soros claim is false. It doesn’t have enough validity on its face to justify a search (and this from a guy who despises Soros).

Monsanto – you are again rather demented. I don’t think it’s funny at all, rather it shows you to be a troll.

Russia was attacking a neighbor. If Russia had let Chechnya declare independence, at least have a vote on it, it would not have lost 10,000s of conscripts and 100 billions of rubles it could have used to feed the starving, house the poor and heal the sick. But I guess everyone has their priorities, eh? I guess referendums are only good for Crimea, eh?

As to your RAND Corp. claim, that’s just ludicrous. RAND obviously has denied writing the report – https://www.rand.org/news/press/2014/07/07.html – and I have found no evidence whatsoever that it is authentic. I very much dislike RAND but I also don’t think they wrote that memo and, as I said, there’s no proof they did.

About Hromadske TV, yes, that idiot said those things. Has nothing to do with anything it’s just one idiot. Should we find outrageous things said by Russians? Maybe even some powerful legislators? Such as Vladimir Volfovich Zhirinovsky?

You could find the Soros link, with ease, back in 2014. The actions of Kiev, support the guidelines Porkie was given by Rand. How many lives have been lost in Ukraine? What is left of the gene pool?

By disagreeing with view points, it does not make you a troll.

Troll – In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain.

Monsanto – are you saying they did not take control of the ‘Black Water Mercenaries’? Or they were not advertising for senior management positions, back in 2013? Do you say, Monsanto has no interest in the ‘black soil of Ukraine’? Or they have not purchased much land in Ukraine, in order to sow their GM toxins?

The President of Chechnya, has no problems with Russia, now does he?

‘…HOME»NEWS»WORLD NEWS»EUROPE»RUSSIA Most Chechens ‘want to remain part of Russia’ By Tom Parfitt in Moscow12:01AM BST 07 Sep 2003 Almost four out of five people living in Chechnya believe that the disputed republic should remain part of Russia, according to the first professional opinion poll to be conducted in the war-torn region…’ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1440823/Most-Chechens-want-to-remain-part-of-Russia.html

Kadyrov pledges to “stay the course” during his second term… Chechnya is and will remain an integral part of Russia, Ramzan Kadyrov said as the parliament approved him as the republic’s head… https://www.rt.com/politics/kadyrov-chechnya-second-term/

You could find the Soros link, with ease, back in 2014.

Apparently you can’t find it, despite that you claim it exists.

By disagreeing with view points, it does not make you a troll.

Of course, I never said anything remotely like that. Attributing false statements to me, does make you a troll. You are a troll for that, and also for making some disgusting claims about Monsanto using dead Ukrainians in their products. That’s just uncivilized, slanderous discussion, and clearly makes you not just a troll, but a particularly nasty one. “posting inflammatory and digressive, or off-topic messages” – exactly.

Monsanto – are you saying they did not take control of the ‘Black Water Mercenaries’?

They clearly did not. See https://monsanto.com/company/media/q/why-did-monsanto-buy-blackwater-mercenary-army/ and https://gmoanswers.com/ask/why-did-monsanto-need-purchase-blackwater-industries-and-or-any-their-affiliates-if-they-are (see, some people can actually provide links, lol, but that only works when what they say is actually true). It doesn’t even make any sense – doesn’t pass the BS test.

Monsanto has no interest in the ‘black soil of Ukraine’

I’m not aware of them having large farming operations. They own some land in the US – very little – to test some crops, but mainly they lease land for that. Couldn’t find anything about Monsanto (now Bayer) owning land in Ukraine, though they do have business operations there.

And in any event, even if they owned land in Ukraine, and even if they owned Blackwater, none of that shows that they started a war to use corpses as ingredients for their “new products”. You’re seriously sick and demented.

The President of Chechnya, has no problems with Russia, now does he?

Sure he does, he made it very clear a few years ago that Chechnya is sovereign and that FSB personnel are not allowed to step foot in Chechnya without permission. To which Putin apparently succumbed. Of course, Chechnya surrendered in the war, after a sizable percent of their population had been killed, and Russia bought his loyalty. But one day he will be gone and Chechens will long for independence again.

Almost four out of five people living in Chechnya believe that the disputed republic should remain part of Russia

LOL!!! So, when advocating for secession is a serious crime in Russia, and you have Russian pollsters entering Chechyan homes in the midst of a brutal civil war in which Russian forces killed 10,000s Chechens, most civilians, accompanied by security forces – you think these Chechens will openly say they want to secede? I am thinking these 1 in 5 are extremely brave! Not sure I would be so brave!

Your views. Mine are different.

Since 2014, Google has removed a lot from the internet. Including the Cyber Berkut article on the Soros/Ukraine memos.

There’s always the way back machine.

And I doubt Google would censor that. There’s far worse things on the search engine. Why would they censor something nobody would take seriously? I hate Soros and all his meddling, and I know what a deeply evil man he is, but I cannot remotely believe he would actually plan a genocide of Russians, nor that he would do it in writing if he were to do that. It’s just utter BS, cyber-Berkut or GRU, I really don’t care.

Tell him to fuck him and block him.

Sometimes I like feeding the trolls, just to drop links. However, run out of ‘Trill’, or just reached boredom stage.

Arrrh zorros, icecream, chocolate and next will be belufa.,.,.errrh…

“This wasn’t a military coup in the strict sense”

You’re right about that, it was a typical CIA playbook style overthrow. Take over a peaceful demonstration with a bunch of paid and also seedy scumba*s. Plenty of Nazis in that grouping too, why they even brought along their favorite weapons to the dance.

Well you can speculate it was CIA all you want, won’t make it true. There were plenty of Ukrainians who were happy to do this. Like Right Sector, but many other groups, including many other external ones (UK, China, Israel, France, Poland, Georgia, ….).

No speculation required. US spent 5 billion on the plan to bring it to fruition.

LOL, wow, such low quality of comments and thinking. That number represents propaganda and various financial incentives. It has nothing to do with (a) CIA, or (b) the snipers. But keep fantasizing your speculation is fact. Maybe the Earth is Flat? Found some videos on YouTube that prove it!

“It has nothing to do with (a) CIA, or (b) the snipers.”

Yep financial incentives…. a whole bunch of them to achieve the desired results with the desired actors.

“Maybe the Earth is Flat?”

With your style of arguments, it doesn’t surprise me that you went looking for the Earth is Flat videos… ENJOY!

My style of arguing? LOL. You are quite stupid, to be honest.

F*** the EU: Alleged audio of US diplomat Victoria Nuland swearing… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2XNN0Yt6D8

Rohrabacher vs Nuland… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDSSksfHG98&t=11s

Leaked: Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders – Estonian FM to EU’s Ashton… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh_YkdGbWqk

Of course I am very familiar with all this. What I think is pure speculation, is that the CIA hired the snipers in Maidan. There simply is no evidence whatsoever for it. The Italian documentary about the Georgian snipers indicated it was Ukrainians who hired them.

False flags are a very common paramilitary technique. It’s not a CIA monopoly. Indeed Mossad is probably most skilled at this technique.

4 of the snipers were Georgian.

Busted: CIA Backed Snipers “Did” Maidan, Not Russia (Video)… https://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/11/28/busted-cia-backed-snipers-did-maidan-not-russia-video/

Presidential candidate in Poland says Poland and CIA were behind Maidan and Maidan snipers Подробнее: https://eadaily.com/en/news/2015/04/20/presidential-candidate-in-poland-says-poland-and-cia-were-behind-maidan-and-maidan-snipers

Gordon Duff is certifiably insane. I doubt he has any evidence but I can’t bear to watch him.

The politician – that’s someone’s opinion, that’s not proof. I can give you lots of negative opinions about Russia ;). This guy does not have access to top secret data or training camps, he’s not a witness.

Any facts?

When they release the classifieds in 30 years time. Even then you would not accept them.

Even then you would not accept them

Another frankly absurd comment from you. They never end from you … or frankly many on Southfront, I’ve blocked so many already today. Nobody capable of a coherent discussion, either it’s name-calling, straw-man attacks or pure, groundless speculation, all of which are more or less exhibited in your nonsense.

Really remarkable, the low quality of comments here.

For the record, and I really hate explaining myself to someone with such total disregard for rationality as you consistently display, I am no fan of the CIA at all and hold them accountable for lots of things. I’ve also looked quite deeply into the events of February 2014 in Maidan. And there simply is no evidence of CIA involvement in the sniper attacks. Unlike you, I don’t scapegoat people. I actually use my brain. You should try it.

Why come here then? Kiev Post might be more to your liking. Believe what you want, just as I will have my own views and opinions. You are not the only person who has looked into events since February 2014 closely. With regards your personal insults, well, it says more about you then me, but, just confirms my first thoughts on your comments.

They’re not personal insults, they are describing the trolling you do. Consistently. If it were on occasion it can be written off but there is a strong pattern.There was a hope you might actually look at your patterns and learn from them, but I guess that is expecting too much from you.

I don’t know why I come here. Given the extremely low level of intelligence and integrity displayed in the comments, it is rather pointless to comment here. The articles are generally of a much higher quality, quite good in many cases. But comment board – 90% trolls and irrational low IQers.

From just one comment, posted by you, in reply to me.

‘Another frankly absurd comment from you’ – you personalised the comment.

‘They never end from you’ – again, you personalised it.

‘For the record, and I really hate explaining myself to someone with such total disregard for rationality as you consistently display’ – again, personalised.

‘Unlike you, I don’t scapegoat people. I actually use my brain. You should try it.’ – personalised.

Your views on me being a troll, which you stated comes from my views with Monsanto, I do not respect the company, or the products they manufacture. Whether you believe it or not, they were one of the dominant factors, with regards globalists interests in Ukraine. Together with the facts that there are many who perished, back in 2014 in the cauldrons, plus, Donetsk airport, for the greed of Monsanto and friends. One of the many reasons I will not buy their products. Together with the fact I am more then happy to support the legal claims against them owing to ‘Round Up’ and it’s carcinogenic links.

Sure I have personalized my comments, and have critiqued you, but that’s different from insults. That’s the difference between a discussion/comment board and an article. I’m hoping you become a better commentator. Maybe it’s not possible, but hope springs eternal :).

I don’t like Monsanto either, in fact I have many times vigorously opposed them. But for what they do, not for some fake, scurrilous allegations that don’t pass the laugh test. When you make outlandish, unproven allegations, it actually weakens legitimate, proven allegations.

So how much land does Monsanto (Bayer, actually) own in Ukraine? How many square km? Proof please. It doesn’t make sense for Monsanto to buy land, they are not a farming company, they are a chemical/seed company.

By the way when I was in Ukraine I met a lot of folks in Kiev who were interested in buying Ukrainian land, none of them worked for Monsanto. A surprisingly large number from Israel and UK though.

Really? True critique does not resort to personal insults, when you offer nought to the argument in return. Personally, I just ignore the comments that are not to my liking, moving onto the next. With those I regard as media disinformation agents, using the 5 D script, discourse, disagree, derail, discredit, discredit script, I might reply, only in order to drop links for others to check out. Whilst laughing at their reliance on soundbites.

Hahahaha, get lost, you idiot…… this site sees you as what you are.

You really are a disillusion wank stain.

Hahahaha, I have the honour of being blocked (for ever) by him; you amateur !!!!.. Get the wine out girl, it;s Friday, so join me.

“lol, so how many terrorist acts have the millions of Ukrainians who have crossed into Russia committed?”

He didn’t say millions, for what it matters it may be even a single digit number, but it would not change the principle that ukraine acts as a terrorist gather point against russia.

you can always ask the numerous sbu and other kinds of scum which has been detained and killed by russia’s border guards – or better yet read their confessions.

He didn’t say millions

Didn’t claim he did. But millions have in fact crossed over. So if the goal was to sneak terrorists into Russia, how many did they manage to get into Russia among those millions? Hmmm? Please, do answer.

better yet read their confessions

Did they say they were sent by Americans? I must have missed those, can you provide a link please?

“Didn’t claim he did”

LoL, but you did! who the f you think you’re talking to, kindergarten kids?

“But millions have in fact crossed over. So if the goal was to sneak terrorists into Russia, how many did they manage to get into Russia among those millions? Hmmm? Please, do answer”

wtf does this even mean? you aren’t going to get anything by murkying waters. and “millions did cross over” seems blatant bs to me.

“Did they say they were sent by Americans? I must have missed those, can you provide a link please?”

after proving that the uprising is a US backed coup, you can safely assume that they act on US interests. that’s how the world goes you know. all in all, you’ve got snowflake points.

LoL, but you did!

I most certainly did not, but since this accusation proves you are an irrational fool, bye-bye (BTW, I blocked you, so I no longer see your posts – don’t like wasting time reading posts by consistently disingenuous, dishonest people).

omfg.

this is what you wrote in the second line of the previous commene:

“Didn’t claim he did. But millions have in fact crossed over”

do you deny it?

comon, deny it. do it for goodness sake.

“u are an irrational fool, bye-bye.”

oh my fucking lol.

Explain why 1 million Ukrainians leave The Ukraine each year.

Because they finally can? It’s a very corrupt country. Been that way since 1991, unfortunately.

“why 1 million Ukrainians leave ”

Because the US, Nazis and other groupings turned Ukraine from a corrupt country into such a paradise, that people are leaving exhausted living in such a paradise created through the Maidan.

“Nazis”. Yawn. Even your hysterics put me to sleep.

People would have left long before Maidan if they could. The one good thing to come out of Maidan, for many young people, is the visa-free entry to EU they now have, and that’s why they leave. The civil war of course didn’t help at all, made things much worse, but they would have left before, too.

They leave because Ukraine is only good for building up a force to fight Russia for the US. Money is not spent on the people of Ukraine or to make Ukraine a better place for the population, only for trying to build a fighting force to strike at Russia, forcing ordinary people to travel to the EU for work in order to survive or migrate to Russia where they can have decent lives. Yes before your types came along, the people protested about conditions as people everywhere do, but didn’t feel they needed to leave a rump state to survive.

I suppose if Ukrainians thought being allied with Russia would be better, they would be allied with Russia.

As it stands, Ukrainians hate Russia. Too bad for you. Maybe you should think about why. Perhaps centuries of Russian imperialism and cultural genocide has something to do with it?

Maybe the arrogance of Russians that they know what is better for their inferior cousins in Ukraine? Maybe the Russian view that Ukrainian is a peasant language, that they are part of the great Russia, that Ukrainian poetry and literature doesn’t exist, and the hundreds of other insults Russians heap on Ukrainians? Do you blame Ukrainians for wanting nothing to do with Russia, when Russians are such arseholes to their neighbor?

But yeah, it’s the CIA”s fault. LOL!

“Ukrainians hate Russia.”

The ones willing to bow to their occupying master anyway.

As for the CIA, it’s straight out of their playbook… i.e. history.

To get away from being used as cannon fodder by the US and affiliated Nazis against their fellows and Russians. In other words, to have a life. Life wasn’t as dire before the arrival of the US looking for proxies to destroy Russia with arrived.

Before, they could not. They get jobs and send money home. Some emmigrate. Well look at Russia. Isnt it the exact same thing.

What a load of rubbish. The violent and expansionist US EVIL Empire just loves for stir up death and destruction. Boy, were they livid that Putin had the gall to take Crimea off them in 2014. It is wrong to instigate death and destruction to remove the ELECTED President of Ukraine. Which bit of violent mob rule do you not understand? How would you like such mob rule to come to your capital city?

Boy, were they livid that Putin had the gall to take Crimea off them in 2014.

Yeah, Russia the liberator sure did force a referendum on Crimea after subjecting the inhabitants to a month of rabidly false lies about “Nazis” in Kiev, lol. Too bad Russia’s love for referendums did not extend to Chechnya or Dagestan and does not include Kurdistan in Syria, hmm? I guess Russia is just stirring up death and destruction there.

It is wrong to instigate death and destruction to remove the ELECTED President of Ukraine.

Indeed, but then again, from the looks of it, US just instigated protests. The violence was quite limited, a couple days in February 2014 of these snipers, it seems these came from Right Sector and Georgia (which has many elements which hate Russia, as does almost every neighbor of Russia). Now in a way US condoned the violence by recognizing the new government, but that’s not instigation.

Which bit of violent mob rule do you not understand?

There were elections after the “mob rule”. Every “revolution” is “mob rule”. Yanukovych was extremely corrupt, terrible leader, he should definitely have been removed by the people. He was stealing left and right from them, a criminal, him and his clan, his son, the dentist who became a billionaire after a few years of Yanukovych in power. The same is true of current leadership, I think the people have the right to overthrow them because they are also corrupt. Maybe Russia can pull this off by encouraging protests? What do you think?

This is typical self-serving justification of Western expansionism and supremacism, leading to a fundamental betrayal of Western values. I suppose it is only human and expected that the values of freedom and democracy would be sacrificed in a bid to weaken and encircle Russia and yank Ukraine out of Russia’s “orbit”. Anything goes, right? This is the fundamental corruption for which I totally condemn the Western elite, who behaved in a disgusting and barbaric manner to instigate, fund and arm the war against the Donbass people, who had the gall to reject the new mob rule Kiev “government” and the US/EU/NATO and stayed loyal to their Russian heritage. More than 10,000 people have died in the Donbass. Tell me, just how many of the 6.7 million people in the Donbass must die to prove Western superiority, exceptionalism and maintain its supremacy?

Let’s discuss your farts to justify US/EU/NATO violent gangsterism. “false lies about “Nazis” in Kiev,” The first move the new mob rule government made was to ban the use of Russian as a regional language, a move that was rejected by the Stooge Fatso “President”, but is now being implemented with consequences for the other minorities and causing problems with Hungary. Do you know about this or does this not matter to you in the cause to justify Western violent expansionism?

Nazis in Kiev? Who would have thunk it? Nazi is as Nazi does. The use of tanks, artillery, grad missiles and fighter jets to suppress and destroy the Donbass people, who only demanded federal autonomy enjoyed by the 50 US states, the Canadian provinces and the German landers, is very much Nazi in my book. How would you like that to happen to your cities and communities? Same old self-serving justification for Western expansionsm and domination.

Uggh, too many posts, out of time to respond to any more!

I really do laugh at the level of Western conceit and self-deception when I read these statements about Crimea! “Russia the liberator sure did force a referendum on Crimea” Crimea has been Russian from 1783 (longer than 37 US states have been part of the US) when the Russian Empire took it off the Ottoman empire. It was removed from Russia by SOVIET power in 1954. Are you now a defender of SOVIET values, as long it serves Western expansionism? Find out about the referendums Crimea did have after 1991 to leave Ukraine. But this history does not matter, does it, if its inconvenient for Western violent expansionism, right? Why on Earth would Russians in Crimea want to be part of a Banderised Ukraine that rejects Russian language, culture and the orthodox religion and end up destroyed like the Donbass, just to prove the superiority of US/EU/NATO gangster values? The absurdity of the Western elite has become staggering.

Crimea has been Russian from 1783

Now you want to redraw boundaries based on historical ones? Is that it? Well we can have a world war every decade! Which border of today matches one from 1783? LOL, talk about hypocrisy and expansionism!! You are a total hypocrite.

Are you now a defender of SOVIET values, as long it serves Western expansionism?

That is a total disingenuous red herring advanced by the usual blind partisans. Has nothing to do with Soviet values and everything to do with internationally recognized boundaries. Russia on multiple occasions, including at time of dissolution and later in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum (Section 1), recognized and accepted Crimea as part of Ukraine (and in 1994 Ukraine gave up all of its nuclear weapons as part of that recognition so, yeah, it was important). So this is about international law.

How long were Dagestan and Chechnya not part of Russian Empire? These countries in fact never wanted to be part of Russian Federation and many times have sought independence. Again, where is the referendum in those territories? Hmmm?

Find out about the referendums Crimea did have after 1991 to leave Ukraine.

I know about this history, have you studied the history of Chechnya? I am wondering why Chechnya does not get a referendum? They also wanted one in 1991, but instead of a vote, they got bombed. At least Ukraine did not bomb Crimea in 1991, did it? In any event Crimea got special status in the constitution and the issue was resolved. Three years later, in the Budapest Memorandum, Russia accepted those borders, with Crimea part of Ukraine. Period.

Why on Earth would Russians in Crimea want to be part of a Banderised Ukraine

Why on Earth would Chechnya, Dagestan, Siberia, etc. want to be part of the Russian E̶m̶p̶i̶r̶e̶Federation? End of the day the Muscovites trip the country bare of wealth and live in absolute luxury while the average man can’t afford aspirin. Really, it’s a simple matter: there are rules about this. While you accuse others of hypocrisy, you yourself are just as hypocritical. Either everyone is entitled to a referendum, or nobody is. It’s not “whoever VeeNarian thinks is entitled to one, is entitled to one”. Try a bit of consistency, though, I know it’s hard for partisans – partisans like you are never about rules, you are exactly about what you accuse “the others” of – about power, absurdity and hypocrisy.

end up destroyed like the Donbass

LOL, yeah, Russians (Girkin (“Strelkov”), etc.) starting a civil war had nothing to do with it. Wow, you are extremely disingenuous, aren’t you?

The absurdity of the Western elite has become staggering.

Surpassed only by your absurdity.

“There were elections after the “mob rule”.” Really? The Party of the Regions was disbanded and the Communist Party of Ukraine was banned before the sham elections organised by the US/EU/NATO gangsters. Which bit about free and fair elections do you not understand? But, hey, who cares as long as “our boy, our stooge, our slave”, the Fatso is elected, right?

The Party of the Regions was disbanded and the Communist Party of Ukraine was banned

If you know Ukrainian politics you know that political parties come and go quite often there. The individual candidates were still allowed to run. Also, I believe the Nazi Party is banned in most European countries. Russia also bans ISIS, as well as any secessionist party. Both Nazis and ISIS, and certainly most secessionist parties, are better than Communists so if Ukraine sans Nazi Party is no democracy, and most of Europe, and Russia for sure (sans Nazis and ISIS and secessionists), has no democracy at all. Why condemn only Ukraine then?

I am glad you have some ability to recognise the truth, despite being blinded by the lust for Western expansionism: ” Now in a way US condoned the violence by recognizing the new government, but that’s not instigation.” This was also done by the EU. How long did it take the US to recognise the Baltics as part of the Soviet Union? Was it 5, 10, or 70 years? Oh, that’s right! It was never! Yet, just within a few days, the US/EU/NATO gangsters recognised the new mob rule “government” in Kiev. That must have been such an agonising decision, right, made ever so impossible by the fact that it was the Western stooges coming to power. Aaah, the pain! The joys of self-serving justification, eh? We all know about US barbarism, exceptionalism and expansionism, but I really had expected better of the EU. They came to mediate between the US funded mobs and Yanukovych, and ended up trashing the Ukrainian constitutional order and so caused the resulting chaos and destruction. This is why I now call for the destruction of the EVIL EU and fully support Brexit.

being blinded by the lust for Western expansionism

Fabricating opinions for someone else is unethical and troll behavior.

recognise the Baltics as part of the Soviet Union

I don’t think I’ve recognized Balkans as part of USSR either. You have?

the new mob rule “government” in Kiev.

Every “democracy” is “mob rule”, right? The mob being all the people. You should check the definition of “mob” before you embarrass yourself further :).

“it seems these came from Right Sector and Georgia (which has many elements which hate Russia.” Shhss! Keep this quiet or you will be accused of being a Putin stooge. I am sure many countries have a grudge against Russia and its Imperial and Soviet past. Let them sort it out as European neighbours instead of bringing US thugs to make matters worse. Even the British elite are still fighting the Crimean war against Russia from the 19th century, as they are deluded enough to think that Russian expansion to British India must be stopped! I really must apologise for the Novichuk hoax. Not all people in the UK are this stupid! Chuk, chuk, chuk!!! Have a nice day, US/EU/NATO supremacist!

Let the US/EU/NATO gangsters try to take Crimea off Russia and see how quickly our cities get fried. The Evil US Empire fails to learn from history.

When the Soviet Union fell, is it not true, that the people of Dagestan, wished to stay aligned with Russia?

‘…On Christmas Day 1991, the Soviet flag flew over the Kremlin in Moscow for the last time. A few days earlier, representatives from 11 Soviet republics (Ukraine, the Russian Federation, Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) met in the Kazakh city of Alma-Ata and announced that they would no longer be part of the Soviet Union. Instead, they declared they would establish a Commonwealth of Independent States. Because the three Baltic republics (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) had already declared their independence from the USSR, only one of its 15 republics, Georgia, remained…’https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/fall-of-soviet-union

Funnily enough, Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, have never ratified their borders, they, only exist whilst the nations are part of the CIS. So when Ukraine leaves the CIS, will the borders revoke, to pre-1917? Before the Bolsheviks overthrew the Russian Empire?

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2a76c93bc6a85c0f035317434625f171524075b17ba74f17db82137417eea732.jpg

I will ask you once again: How many Chechens do you know in person? Would you give us something to prove your words about killing of 1/3 of Chechen population?

Would you give us something to prove your words about killing of 1/3 of Chechen population?

I posted a link in the comment to which you responded. Most of the estimates are from pro-Kremlin folks, but even those go as high as 250,000 killed. Other estimates are higher. Given Chechen population of 600,000 (total Chechnya population around 1990 was 1.2 million, but about 400,000 of those were Russian who fled early in the wars and another 200,000 were other ethnicities), 200,000 is about 1/3rd.

Dagestan – Russian Dependent Territory, which the Islamic Extremists invaded.

Russians do not cry, they answer back, which the Islamic extremists found out, to their cost.

So how can taking out a school, full of young kids, plus, a theatre, packed with innocents on a night out, be classed as defence? Remember, the war started in 1999, when the Islamic Extremists tried to take out the Russian Dependent territory of Dagestan.

What type of evil savages use schools as a legitimate target in war, besides Islamic Extremists and the Nazis in Ukraine, so desperate to keep their paymaster happy.

Russians do not cry, they answer back, which the Islamic extremists found out, to their cost.

Quite contraire, I remember a lot of Russian crying. Have you forgotten already? Shame. And if by “answer back” you mean kill vastly more civilians than Russia lost, sure, it’s true. But it was also true before the school.

So how can taking out a school, full of young kids, plus, a theatre, packed with innocents on a night out, be classed as defence?

It’s really not difficult to answer that question, try using the brain God blessed you with. The exact details of how the school was “taken out”, by the way, are not that clear. I think we can all agree that, had the attackers wanted to, they could have killed everyone in the school long before Russian forces arrived on the scene (same with Moscow theater – where vast majority of the dead were killed by … Russia).

What type of evil savages use schools as a legitimate target in war,

What kind of savages do this in war? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nZhG_lmOkM&t=60s

Why choose a school, with young kids in the first place? Not even animals would go that low.

Leverage? You know, to negotiate with Russia to stop murdering Chechen children? Oh right – those don’t matter, they are not the Russian ueber-Mensch :).

Was not aware Russia took any schools hostage? Unlike the Islamic extremists who went after Beslan.

Disingenuous again. Do you ever stop? I wrote: “Russia to stop murdering Chechen children”. What does this have to do with schools, or taking hostages?

It seems like every single poster on SouthFront cannot have anything resembling a coherent discussion. Fuck.

Beslan School Siege – courtesy of the Islamic extremists.

Is this Nazis attacking Moscow? Nope – it’s Russians attacking Grozny!

I guess Chechen’s Great Patriotic War didn’t go as well! Gee, I wonder why some Chechens might be upset by that, and attack Russia at home? I wonder? Can you possibly think of a reason? It’s a gigantic mystery!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaFrCy9HTOM

“Donbass isn’t exactly the epicenter of law and order in the world and – gasp! – there are many paramilitary and other corrupt forces running about.”

Lmao, really?

we are still expecting the Donbass population to turn against the “gangs of gangsters and hooligans”, like Porko and the scum backing him been saying left and right since almost five years.

War is hell. Lots of bad shit happens in civil wars. If only there were video of the Bolshevik Revolution, you could see what true horror and crimes look like.

But still, it is not terrorism. Though there are a lot of so-called “war crimes” committed in the process.

See for example this one, from Chechnya (particularly the hilarious laughter of the two Russian soldiers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nZhG_lmOkM&t=60s

War Crimes, are there for a reason. Thankfully, Russia has audited the war crimes, commited by Porkies Forces, to the people of Donetsk and Lugansk, in the various White Books, they sent to The Hague.

No doubt, including the victims of the Odessa Trade Union Massacre, plus, those in the image below.

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/227f0d11a3f1b5c9142d452dc97e1bc0b583961c899787715ff0135d3933b7c2.png

Babies, toddlers, kids, women, infirm, elderly – should not be cannon fodder for war. True war, is fought by soldiers, wearing uniforms, fighting as equals under the rules of the Geneva Convention.

I’ve seen those images. I actually think it’s quite disrespectful to the dead and their families to keep posting them around. But Russians seem to love doom porn. Sad.

Anyway, to the point, good. Hopefully those responsible for war crimes will be punished. Including those two soldiers in the video in the post to which you responded. Do you think they were punished by Russia for their war crimes?

I am English, disgusted with my Government’s support for the evil savages in Ukraine. Do believe those who slaughtered the victims, caused the families the distress.

The Hague, or hopefully the SCO will come up with their own version, owing to politics, will deal with those who had no problem slaughtering the innocents in Donetsk.

Well if we want to get into slaughtering the English have an endless history, vastly more grisly than Donbass. English have been murdering, marauding and destroying for five centuries non-stop, killed at least 1 billion people, the greatest criminals in the world’s history, esp. that despicable death cult the House of Windsors, that you English worship like deities. Don’t get me started on Death Island.